How Boxing Nutrition Differs From MMA + Males vs. Females w/ Jack Coak (SSOF Ep 85)

Jack Coak1:53

I've yet to have a full camp of cooking for someone. But yeah, I think that's a thing, a lot of nutritionists can't actually cook, which is crazy, absolutely bonkers. But yeah, I can. I do that for some of my guys if I feel it's necessary and obviously if they have the budget to and stuff like that. So yeah, that's super cool, getting involved on the front line and cooking and creating recipes and things like that for people.

It's one of those things where people love cooking for people but they don't like cooking for themselves. It's the same with me. I love that whole process of presenting the plate in the fight week and a fighter coming back from training and having a plate of food they can look at and it looks visually appealing and it ticks all the boxes and they enjoy it and communicating with them. So yeah, I think cooking is a big part of my practice.

James de Lacey3:02

Awesome. And we've, you mentioned weight cuts a few times. We've had quite a few, I guess, prominent nutritionists on the podcast talking weight cuts nutrition. Guys like Danny Lennon, Jordan Sullivan, Peter Miller. Others escape me right now. I mean, it's back in the podcast archives.

But we'll definitely touch on the weight cutting aspect. But before we do that, obviously you have a lot of boxers that come to you for nutrition or you're working with, what are some of the bigger mistakes, not just weight cutting, but outside of the weight cutting, that you see a lot of these boxers doing regarding their nutrition for their fight performance?

Jack Coak3:50

Obviously we'll come on to talk about weight cutting, which should be interesting because I think some of those guys that you're talking about there who I know talk about nutrition for predominantly Muay Thai and MMA, which is, I do think the nutrition for boxing is very, very different. Even though it's a combat sport, I do genuinely believe it's very, very different and niche.

But in terms of the biggest mistakes that the boxers make, I think number one, to be fair, James, is probably just laziness and actually forgetting to eat. And it sounds crazy, but the amount of fighters that I've had in consultations or spoken to outside of camp and bits and bobs, where they just actually just forget to eat. They're so busy with training and commitments and it's just oh, I just had a grenade bar instead of a meal because I was on the go and I had to pick so and so up and I had to do this interview and do this and do that.

But there's actually a lot of this whole culture now of "I didn't have time." So a lot of them don't prioritize nutrition as probably as much as they should do. That's probably one of the biggest mistakes that I see. And probably just underfueling themselves as well, going into morning sessions in particular, not eating enough.

I used to have guys have, and it works for some people, guys that have done Ramadan and cultural beliefs, and they've watched the latest Joe Rogan podcast and they want to fast and they want to try these things. It's always the way. Some guy the other day was, "I want to do a four-day fast." I'm like, okay, go for it, dude.

James de Lacey5:02

That's everywhere right now, man. Everyone's, "Oh, I did this four-day water fast and look at me." I'm like, if you're trying to perform and train and stuff, imagine just not having fuel. Why would you do that? Crazy.

Jack Coak5:32

Yeah. And then three, four, the three, four days after, they'll just get that massive hedonic response where they'll eat more than they would have done on the three, four days with they normally eat anyway. So they'll, yeah, it's just mad.

But yeah, that's another big mistake, is them underfueling, especially if they're doing a morning sparring session or morning heavy boxing session and they eat a sachet of Quaker oats porridge and then just some skimmed milk for breakfast, and I'm like, it's 190 calories and you want to do a 1,600 calorie high-intensity session off the back of that and then eat loads of food in the evening.

So it's probably just the structure, the periodization of nutrition, which they don't quite get. And once they get a grips of it, that's where you can really see changes in their hunger, their mood, their energy levels, obviously their training performance and stuff like that. So it's probably the two biggest mistakes that I've seen recently.

James de Lacey6:26

I want to come back to what you mentioned about boxing nutrition being different to say Muay Thai, MMA. Maybe expand on that a bit.

Jack Coak6:26

Yeah, I think MMA and Muay Thai, there is a very, very, very big cultural thing around weight cutting. And the more I've been in and around boxing for the last two, three years, you know, in close inside camps and seeing day of weigh-ins, which obviously is not a thing in MMA or Muay Thai, is it? It's always the day before.

So we're looking at boxers that are weighing in at say half three and then fighting at quarter past six. So it's completely different. Also, you don't have the grappling element. It's purely just striking. So if you're potentially rehydrating heavier, are you going to be sluggish? You're going to be less fast and reaction slower. So I think it's a lot different in terms of that.

Also, the training is very different as well, in terms of those guys doing maybe triple training days if they've got to do grappling, striking, wrestling, etc., conditioning, whereas boxing is predominantly just a boxing session and then another session which might be a low or high-intensity run or sprints or an S&C session. So usually if you compared it, the training load for a boxer should in theory be probably about 20, 30% lower than perhaps an MMA athlete's training schedule, purely because of the different disciplines and stuff like that. So obviously the nutrition demands change.

So there's quite a few differences. I don't think people, people seem to think, oh, it's combat sports, it's exactly the same. But it's very different because, like I said, it's predominantly just a striking sport, where sometimes there's a big difference in weight divisions.

But I think now we're starting to see, especially in females, we're starting to see females moving up weight classes because the benefit that they're getting from potentially being heavier than their opponent is not actually a bigger benefit of them dangerously kind of moving down weight categories and then getting an eating disorder. And so a lot of the females are now moving up in pro boxing up through the weight...

Categories. Right, because obviously they're just cutting their body down in a really low calorie deficit, cutting dehydration at the end of the camp, and then they're finding it really hard. Obviously their body wants to recover their metabolism, but the benefit they're getting from being a kilo heavier than another female is just really not worth it in boxing.

James de Lacey8:47

Nice. We'll continue down this road. We'll break this down a little further, but I think what will help some of the listeners maybe visualize some of that. As you obviously mentioned, nutrition structure during the day. With some boxers it'll be interesting to see, I guess, how you would, let's say optimal quote unquote, of nutrition structure for a boxer and how that would differ to maybe someone who's doing MMA and has say a three a day, three session a day day.

Jack Coak9:17

For sure. So when I used to work in MMA, I know for a fact it's a lot more glycolytic, so the requirement for high intensity movements and obviously the carbohydrate demands are much higher. Whereas you may have a boxer that may do say a fasted low intensity tech session where the desire or need for massive fueling or loads of carbohydrates beforehand is not really necessary, and then they may have their main session in the middle of the day.

So, say for example, a boxer does a tech session in the morning or a low intensity run in the morning. We might say for them to do that fasted so they can improve their fat oxidation. They can not eat beforehand because they wouldn't want to eat that early anyway. They can tap into a little bit of muscle mass if we need to break into that as well, doing a fasted session, get their body moving.

Then they would then maybe have a fueling breakfast, say for example your pancakes, your porridge, your overnight oats, that sort of thing. Then they would then maybe have a snack and then do their main session, have a recovery lunch, and then drop low again, like a low carbohydrate meal. Even high protein, lots of vegetables, etc.

Whereas an MMA athlete, they might need to have more sort of recovery in between their sessions in terms of those acute carbohydrates. So they might have to have recovery shakes because they've got three sessions in a day, and their first session might be on the mats in the morning, so it's going to be high intensity. So yeah, it will differ a lot, I think.

James de Lacey11:01

Gotcha. And I think you mentioned there around the carbohydrate intake. I don't know if it's a saying or not. I know there yesterday there was a, there's still a thought or a school of thought around living high carbohydrate going into your sessions and then low carbohydrates at night. Almost like train high, recover low. I don't know if that's correct or not, but is that something that you follow? Because obviously you mentioned about having lower carbohydrates maybe in the evening when you're not training and then high carbohydrates around training.

Jack Coak11:31

So with the guys that perhaps need to lose a little bit of body fat, usually the way boxing usually works is that usually the training session is probably going to be 6, 7:00 on an evening. So it's going to be an evening training session. So you'd have 90, 80% of your calorie intake before that session so you're nice and fueled up. You would have a hard session, and then after it, it'll be late at night, say half 8, 9:00 at night.

We don't want to be pumping loads of food into an athlete or a boxer at this time of night because obviously it's going to slow down their rate of digestion, impact their sleep quality and their recovery. So it's just a natural nice time to just say, "Okay, well, let's just drip feed in some protein here and then let you go to sleep and almost let you do the weight cutting whilst you're asleep."

So your body's not really suffering. You don't feel the effects of it, because if I'm sat here now hungry in a deficit, I'm going to feel it and I'm going to feel irritated. I'm going to feel, "Oh, I'm hungry." But if it's just done whilst the boxer is sleeping, I just frame it that way and say, "Listen, we're going to basically cut the weight whilst you're asleep."

Then they get up in the morning, have some fluids, some electrolytes, maybe like a ginger shot, turmeric shot, something like that. And then they then go and do their first session fasted. They're still in that fat oxidation state, in that state of lipolysis, so they can burn that fat again in the morning and then fuel up again. It just naturally works quite well, the way that sort of typical boxing training schedules are created. It works quite well.

You don't want to be pumping like a massive, you know, steak, mushroom, sweet potato, green broccoli meal into someone at 9:00 at night when they need to be in bed by 10. So it's just a nice way to frame it to them. Listen, we're not going to starve you, but we're just going to give you some, just a meal based around protein, whether that's a smoothie with some micronutrients in, some berries, chia seeds, whether it's a bowl of Greek yogurt and some fruit and some nuts or something like that, or it's going to be a protein shake with some peanut butter blended in there, some ice or something.

Just something simple that they can just have after training to curb their hunger and tick the boxes for recovery, but not hammering loads of food into them.

James de Lacey13:35

Does that change at all when it's not in a weight cut phase, when they don't have to drop any weight?

Jack Coak13:35

If then, if they don't need to drop any weight, because I do have some fighters or have worked with some fighters that don't need to be dropping that body fat, or they might have a really hard session, say in the morning first thing, like sprints or track work or something. We probably say like we could probably get like a higher carb meal in, like white rice or a bagel and some eggs or something like that at that time of night, just to get something that's easy to digest but still obviously rich in carbohydrates.

But I think we're talking about really sort of, I mean, 80, 90% of boxers are looking to reduce their body fat over a six to eight week training camp. There's not many that will be maintaining really.

James de Lacey14:22

So I hope you're enjoying the chat so far. Before we get back to that, I just want to let you know that Sweet Science of Fighting is more than just a podcast. We have a full training app with strength conditioning programs for strikers, grapplers, and MMA athletes, so you don't have to think about what you're doing and you're getting access to the latest scientific methods to improve combat sports performance.

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If someone's out of boxing camp and they train at, say, 6, 7, 8 p.m. class, a lot of people struggle to sleep after that. And as you mentioned there, if you're having a big meal, that might impact it. Does, how does that meal change for someone who's out of camp, just training their boxing, but finish class at, say, 8:00 p.m.? Do you still, would you still do the same similar thing there where you'd be more just protein, fat oriented, or would you still be adding the carbohydrates in?

Jack Coak16:13

No, that's a cool question. Because I like that whole premise of still training on the days that you would in camp, but just reducing the intensity or maybe the double session. So if you box Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I'd say to the boxers, "Well, just keep that, because otherwise you lose all sense of routine. And when you come back into camp, you're all out of whack and out of routine. Your body, you don't really know what to do. You've just trained whenever you feel like it." It's good to have that routine.

So if they can keep those eating habits, but for example, if they are going to have, if I have said to them before, you know, have some Greek yogurt and some blueberries and some walnuts before bed and some cinnamon, and then we're going to keep the carbohydrates low, keep that glucose low as well. Out of camp, I might say add some oats or add some granola, just for an extra bit of fiber or some carbohydrates to give it a bit of texture.

So we don't change the meal completely in the habit, we just change a few things in and around the formation of that meal, if that makes sense.

Not getting them to have Chinese takeaway at 9:00 p.m. out of camp. Well, yeah, I don't recommend it, but they do it anyway.

James de Lacey17:20

So yeah, hopefully that helps some of the listeners, obviously who might just be more recreational boxers and things like too, or just like national competitors. A lot of people train in the evening after work and might struggle to sleep afterwards, but keeping that meal light might be a way to do it, as Jack was talking about there.

But I also want to dive, you obviously mentioned about the rehydration after weight cuts. Obviously, some of your guys are weighing in at 3:30, then competing 6:37. Obviously it's slightly different than the 24-hour weigh-in, but you obviously mentioned as well around they don't want to add too much back to be too heavy for that because it might not benefit them as much in boxing compared to something like MMA. Maybe dive into a little bit of that and how your weigh-in strategy changes then, or even your rehydration strategy changes then because of those things.

Jack Coak17:44

Yeah, so we can talk about like the one that's obviously on the day. So obviously if you're weighing in at 3:00 and then you're fighting at 6, 7:00, we've got a very small window here because people think, oh that's 4 hours, but it's not. It's probably about two and a half, because bring it back to there because they've got to get their hands wrapped, they've got to start their mobility, they've got to start hitting pads, they've got to start their ring walk, etc.

So the time period between weighing in, speaking to a doctor, doing this, doing that—and I only know this because I've been to so many shows—but speaking to the doctor, the officials for the weigh-in are an hour late, so the weigh-in gets pushed back. And all these things that happen in real life situations mean that it's reducing the amount of time that you can get any food and fluids into your body without it sitting in your stomach and then you feeling the effects of that, either physically or mentally in the back of your mind in the ring or in a fight.

So those same day weigh-ins are really crucial for nailing the nutrition because, without being sort of—what's the word?—without being sort of lax and saying, oh, if you've got a day before weigh-in you can do this and you can do that. Obviously you need to have a bespoke nutrition strategy for a day before weigh-in, but in hindsight, as long as you nail the majority of the basics, you're going to be refueled well. But in terms of a same day weigh-in, you really have to be quite pinpoint with the timings and everything because obviously with digestion and stuff.

So I like the guys to make sure they're not dehydrating anything for a same day weigh-in because we don't have enough time to recover, say, 2% dehydration in that time frame, and it's going to affect their momentum and their psychology building up until the weigh-in and the fight on the same day. So we'd use really simple tactics like obviously getting their body weight down naturally, and we probably get them max at 1 kilo to 1.5 kilos over the week before the same day weigh-in.

So really we're going into this fight week with a kilo or so to lose, so they know, right, it's a kilo, I'm still going to be training, I'll be able to get that off easily. And we just tapered down the volume of their meals, and we reduce the fiber intake of those meals. So if someone was perhaps having porridge, I might say to them, right, okay, with this porridge and nuts and chia seeds and loads of berries and apple and stuff, we're going to cut that out because it's really high fiber and bulk in your stomach.

And we'll just do scrambled eggs, spinach, avocado, and just have that for breakfast instead. So it's much lighter but still a decent sized breakfast for you to have.

Then obviously want them to wake up under the weight so that they have space to have breakfast and maybe a little bit of lunch slash a fueling snack before they go and weigh in at 3:00. Because the worst thing is if you're fighting at 6:00 p.m. and you're weighing in at 3:00 p.m. is having to starve yourself or fast until 3:00 p.m., and then your body's natural response is to really eat. So then you get bloated and then obviously you feel the effect.

So you want to have, want to feel like you're fueling, as in this energy, in this sort of—I call it to the guys like chakra—so it's like I'm fueling up for battle later. And that makes a big difference. I'm having a good breakfast, I'm having a couple of snacks before the weigh-in, I'm drinking, I've weighed in fine, and then I'm just going to top the tank up.

Whereas someone that's obviously dehydrated for a same day weigh-in, hasn't had breakfast, is really dying to get something in them after the weigh-in, those are the guys which usually perform quite sluggish because they've had like a Nando's and then they've had a load of fluid and a load of this and a load of that, and they just feel really sluggish in the ring because it just hasn't digested in time. So yeah, the same day weigh-ins are difficult, but it's just about getting, having a strategy in place, communicating with the boxer.

James de Lacey21:27

So what are some other snack options then you would recommend for someone who's having something before the weigh-in on the weigh-in day?

Jack Coak21:52

So we keep the weight of the food really low. So I say to the boxer, put it on some scales or just look at it and think, does that weigh a lot of weight? As in, like, a big bowl of pasta weighs 600 grams. I say, pick that up, does it feel heavy? And they say no. I said, okay, well it's packed full of energy, but it's not heavy, so you're not going to put that weight on. And they're like, oh okay, I've got you, I've got you.

So a classic example would be something like a bagel with some jam and some honey and some sliced banana or some raisins or something like that. Like pancakes with a bit of Nutella or peanut butter and some honey. Like Greek yogurt or just flavored fruit yogurts with like dried fruit, a little bit of granola or some rice cakes and some Nutella banana, that sort of stuff.

So cereal. So nice low weight, high carb snacks that can get digested quickly. It's nice and low weight, and it doesn't fill them up too much so they can then eat after the weigh-in. So we try and just keep it nice and high energy but nice and low weight, and just obviously just topping up the tank.

James de Lacey22:41

Nice. And then obviously with the initial weigh-out till the weigh-in, so I'm assuming it's kind of like a straight calorie deficit, starting to reduce the carbohydrates coming in. But on weigh-in week, you obviously mentioned even on the day, hey, there, or the weigh-in week there, might you swap out some of the carbohydrates or high fiber foods?

For example, your scrambled eggs breakfast there didn't have any carbohydrates. So are you in that week trying to go low or no carb, or you just looking to kind of switch out high fiber carbohydrates for things like, let's just say, white bread and candy as an example? That's very simple carbohydrates that don't hold in your stomach. And are you maintaining, say, a normal calorie intake like the previous week and just dropping it through lower fiber foods?

Jack Coak23:37

Yeah, so the same day weigh-in, we'll continue with the gradual weight loss, so they'll still be in a bit of a deficit. And then fight day will try and keep them in a surplus. For the day before weigh-in, so the guys, maybe the guys that are fighting for—because I guess in boxing it's like you got your four or six round fighters, the ones that are starting off their careers, and then you've then got the title fighters. So Southern Area, British, English, European, etc., where they will weigh in the day before their fight, like a classic MMA fighter.

Now with those guys, yes, we'll look to obviously do a water cut because we just have to to get down to the weight, obviously reducing their carbohydrate intakes. But I still like to give them a carbohydrate intake in and around training, purely just for a mental boost. So, say, okay, they're training at 3:00 p.m., we'll give them like, like you said there, some scrambled eggs, some spinach, avocado, peppers, etc. They'll have lunch, like a salad-based lunch, and then they'll have a snack which is high in carbohydrates before training.

So whether that be some peanut butter bagel, some honey and some cinnamon, or like you said there, some jelly beans or some candy or something like that, just to give them that quick, and they'll use it straight away so it won't stay in their system because they'll utilize those carbohydrates in that energy in that short training session. And then, yeah, obviously keeping the theme with lowering the carbohydrate, lowering the fiber as well during that fight week to get them to lose the weight.

So and then really reducing the dehydration to probably about 3% max. And obviously MMA is much, much more. So we're looking at a really simple, well-rehearsed kind of water cut at the end of that process. So yeah, much different to MMA and Muay Thai where guys are cutting like six, seven kilos of fluid. It's much less in boxing.

James de Lacey25:14

How does the rehydration or refueling strategy look for your guys who are doing those same day? It's like that 3:00 weigh-in, fighting at 6 or 7, because obviously, as you mentioned, you got to be much more pinpoint with your strategies versus when you've got the full 24, 48 hours.

Jack Coak25:46

Yeah, so I like to use kind of like multi-transport carbohydrate products to make sure that we're...

Ensuring gut health. So in the week of the fight week, I'm getting them to take like a high strength probiotic just to keep their gut in check, and similar foods that they've had all of their life or training camp just so nothing goes funny or we go wayward gut-wise.

Then after the weigh-in we'll start by introducing, combining carbohydrates with liquid. So if we can find a product or an option which combines multi-transport carbohydrates with liquid and put the two together so we tick both boxes, we'll use that. So something like a really high carb drink which doesn't taste too sweet, we'll use. And then we'll use stuff like fructose-based products, so energy bars, energy gels, bit straight away, like dried fruit, stuff like that which is really easy to get into the system, fresh fruit.

And then I've changed my opinion over the last sort of year just from being in practice that this kind of idea that you've just weighed in so you need a meal is probably coming from the people that are really starving or dehydrated. Whereas if you reframe it differently and you have lunch at 12:00 before a 3:00 weigh-in, you wouldn't want to have a big meal. So that's my sort of thought process around it: it's completely different now where we just need to really prioritize gut health after the same day weigh-in and target high GI carbohydrates from different types of sugars.

So a typical sort of meal or a snack post weigh-in an hour after that weigh-in on the day in the dressing room, because they'll be in the changing room at this point, will be like something like pancakes with strawberries, banana, maple syrup, something like that which they can really easily eat, it's really low in weight, it digests super easily, and they don't feel hungry afterwards as well.

So it's kind of ticking a lot of boxes. But something like that as an example: nice and light, they still feel like they're fueling, but it's not quote unquote like a chicken pasta or a chicken noodle stir fry or something like that. It's much lighter, so it digests quicker and then they can warm up on time, et cetera.

And then obviously like during the warm-up, utilizing like carb drinks, utilizing like gels, stuff like that that they've rehearsed in sparring and stuff, just so their body's used to them and nailing the timings with those as well. So just having a chat with a boxer before and saying, "You're going to have this one 10 minutes before you warm up, you're going to have this one halfway through the warm-up, and then you're going to have this one 10 minutes before your ring walk," just so they know psychologically, timing-wise, when they need to be having what.

So they just know instead of it being a shock to them, "Oh, I've got to have this at this time, I didn't know that." So just communicate.

James de Lacey28:37

So with the high carbohydrate liquid drink, with mixing something like, I don't know, like a multidextrin powder if they've had that before into say like a Gatorade or something, that would be kind of what you're talking about, or an example of that?

Jack Coak29:02

Yeah, literally that. I mean there's loads of products out there at the moment that you can find that are used in endurance sports and stuff that you can use. I always try and taste test them myself, so I do a lot of sport myself. So I'll try them, I'll literally try them on myself before I even recommend them to fighters. So the textures of gels or drinks and anything like that.

I had a product I used the other day, it was like an energy sort of drink, like a rehydration drink, and I just hated the taste of it. It tasted like medicine. So I was like, "Oh, I'm not going to recommend that to any of my fighters, because if I can't drink that after I've just played tennis, why would I expect a boxer to have that just after they've weighed in?"

So just testing like lots of different products. But yeah, literally like a multidextrin kind of blend of different sugars is perfect for that kind of job. And then you can combine it with food as well. So if you can get the fructose from say like banana or honey or jam, you can combine that obviously and hit it. And practicing it with the athlete, so practicing it just to see how the gut handles it in training.

So if you had one of these products and you had an example of what you wanted to have after weigh-in, you could just give that to them as a pre-training snack in camp and just see how their gut tolerates it. And then you know for sure that they'll be able to have it after a weigh-in.

James de Lacey30:15

How much fluid are you looking to take in typically after those same day weigh-ins? Because you mentioned you don't really dehydrate going into those, so I'm assuming the protocols are slightly different than the 24-48 hour?

Jack Coak30:35

So we're looking at probably around sort of 750 mils per hour. So if we've got three hours, we're looking at sort of up to 2.5 liters going back in. Otherwise they'll just feel too bloated and too heavy. I knew a guy that did a water load for a same day weigh-in, and he entered the fight feeling incredibly bloated. And he actually lost the fight because he took a body shot and said he nearly just lost consciousness, that he was going to be sick because he had so much—he was just topped up to here with fluid basically.

So you don't want them to feel too bloated. That's why for the day before weigh-in you may say—I mean I've heard other practitioners, I'm not too sure on like the research with it, but they say, "You know, you have your water, your electrolytes, your sodium first, and then you start fueling once that box is ticked." We don't have time to do that. We just don't have the time.

So we have to get the carbohydrates and the energy into the tank and the calories into the tank for the fight straight away. So we don't have any time really to kind of, you know, or we're going to take two hours to just rehydrate and just get some electrolytes back. We have to combine it all together.

James de Lacey31:54

How does that approach change or not change if, say, the weigh-in was in the morning, so like 9:00 a.m., but the fight time is still 6:00 or 7:00 p.m.?

Jack Coak31:54

Good question. I mean, I've never had that. So in pro boxing I've never had a same day weigh-in at 9:00 in the morning. I guess if there was probably six hours extra time, you could do a little bit of dehydration, probably 1%. So if someone was over, I'd probably say, "Okay, well we can do like a light skip-out or something, a light active sweat-out in the morning before the 9:00 a.m. weigh-in," similar to what amateurs would do.

So I know amateurs have done that. It's just doing like a small active, really low intensity session just to sweat out maybe 0.6, 0.7 of a kilo, weigh in, get that straight back on. So you could introduce a little bit of dehydration to make weight if you were weighing in at 9:00, 10:00 in the morning.

I know some amateur competitions like Haringey Box Cup and stuff, amateurs will do that over three days. So as long as it's not above sort of 3%, we're not going to impact performance. But psychologically, sweating out on the day of, the same day of a fight, is for me personally it's not great psychological preparation.

James de Lacey33:06

Fair enough, fair enough. And then obviously we talked about, you talked about female fighters earlier in the podcast as well. How does the approach change with males and females, maybe say just like general nutrition out of camp and then kind of like that in-camp, I guess weight cutting, rehydration kind of thing?

Jack Coak33:06

I mean, from my experience, females require a lot more, I'd say, attention, a lot more sort of time and effort and empathy than males perhaps do. And also they have to be closer to the weight because we know that their physiology is completely different to us males. So their kind of ability to cut water weight—and obviously less muscle mass, so they can't store as much glycogen in the muscle is less.

So I have an example. I have a female that's making the same weight as one of my male boxers. He would weigh in at 59 kilos, he would start his fight week at 63 kilos and lose four kilos in the fight week for acute weight loss strategies. And she would start her fight week at 60.6. So there's a big difference, the amount of weight that's been cut: almost 50% difference really, probably just under.

So there's a big difference in how you approach the nutrition for both parts. Also, females I feel like you have to work with them a bit more. I mean I've got a few females, like championship level sort of female boxers, that their nutrition basically just is dictated by like the mood. Whereas us kind of guys are just like, "I'll just eat that. I'm training hard, I'll just—whatever you tell me to do, I'll just do it."

Whereas the females are like, "Oh, I felt a bit tired from training today, so I've now decided that I don't like the texture of crunch, so I'm now not going to eat nuts or cereal ever again." And then the next week they'll then say that they just randomly just don't like drinking water. And it's just like, "What?"

James de Lacey34:35

So a lot of their stuff—this is like my wife right now. It's like this is what I'm hearing Monday. She's like, "Oh, just James, I just decided I just don't like you anymore."

Jack Coak34:58

That's funny. Now you carry on.

James de Lacey34:58

Yeah, it's—yeah.

Jack Coak34:58

They're just a lot more complex, I think, in terms of which is—

Which is fine, but yeah, I think it's a lot more collaboration. Whereas I've had some males where you just say do this, do that, will be sweet. And then you've got some females where it's literally, can we change this, can we do that, get their feedback, how they're feeling, the time of their menstrual cycle, how that's affecting their mood, their appetite. You might get a female that has a really high hard spar and then their appetite is just gone afterwards. Like I know females that sparred at 2:00 and then just wouldn't eat the rest of the day, just I just don't have an appetite.

Whereas a guy, I would do a really hard session and then be like, give me pizza. So it's a little bit different. But yeah, good challenges. It's a good experience and good challenges to work around.

James de Lacey35:54

Yeah, Andrew Asha is actually watching this live. He says nothing beats Haribo, so obviously he's a gummy bear fan for carbohydrates. But you also mentioned menstrual cycle there as well. How do you plan, or I guess do you have any strategies planning around that? Because if the menstrual cycle falls on fight week or weigh-in day, when water retention can be higher, is there anything that you plan for there?

Jack Coak36:22

Do you know what, James, it's a conversation which I used to try... and maybe it's because I was younger and less experienced. It's a conversation which I used to kind of shy away from a little bit. Whereas now I'm kind of straight down the line with it and say, like, listen, let's talk about your menstrual cycle. Like, what contraception you want, how has this affected you in the past, what other methods have you tried, what experience have you got from previous fight weeks, how much water do you tend to hold? And really go through it with them and their coaches, just so everyone's on board with that information and getting it out there.

And I feel like it's one of those topics that once you just normalize it and speak about it and realize that it's a very, very important part of obviously their preparations and making weight, the less kind of pressure and less sort of stuff there is around it. For example, I know, who was it, I think it was Shannon Courtney for a world title came on when, of the day of the weigh-in. So obviously missed weight, couldn't get it off because obviously she came on a period, retained all the fluid, then couldn't fight for her world title and then lost the fight the next day.

So that's the kind of example I would always use to a female fighter and say, like, if you don't plan it properly, then that's the consequence. If you don't know when it's going to be and you haven't factored that into your fight camp and your fight date, then suddenly you might retain a load of weight at the back end of the camp and then you're going to be in a sticky situation and be really, really stressed.

So yeah, it's a conversation which needs to be had more with coaches and people to be more educated about it. I mean, I've had to educate myself on it, which has been difficult. But it's really important if you are working with females to educate yourself around that kind of topic area and speak to as many different people and research.

James de Lacey38:04

So what strategies do you employ? I guess if that happens, if the menstrual cycle is starting on that fight week or close to that weigh-in day, is there something that you do differently to help with that water retention and things, or to make weight at least?

Jack Coak38:31

Fingers crossed, I've never actually had it, so I can't really... let's theoretically... theoretically. So if someone was to basically come onto their cycle at the start of a fight week, yeah, so obviously they're going to be retaining that water. Yeah, so they're going to panic, they're going to stress, their body's going to be in that state.

I mean, theoretically, you would have to try and rely on really safe, well-managed acute dehydration with them and monitor that process throughout and be closer to the weight. I would have liked to have thought that you would be obviously, as a practitioner or someone working with a female, that they would be close to the weight anyway, so it shouldn't be some sort of cowboy job where you're trying to pull six kilos off a female.

But for example, if there will be a requirement for a little bit of dehydration in that case, obviously done safely, so we just have to go down that route and obviously help them as much as possible. But yeah, it's a difficult area, and one that I always know when a female's sort of cycle is, in terms of where the fight date is going to be, so we can have the conversation with them about two weeks out from their fight.

James de Lacey39:58

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Got you. Does different contraception impact your strategies as well?

Jack Coak40:52

Yeah, I found that when they go on the pill, that's the worst one for affecting water weight and the general mood. But it's case by case and fighter to fighter, obviously individual to individual, and how their weight and their mood and everything is affected by what type of contraception they're on.

But generally speaking, I know females that have been on the morning after pill have retained or gained more weight from being on the pill. And when they come off it, for example, they might come off the pill maybe like a week before their fight, they get less water retention or the weight starts to drop after they come off it.

So it's all about trying these things, like, perhaps out of camp and seeing how different contraceptions affect their weight when they're not preparing for a fight, when their body's in a normal, healthy state, when they're not in an energy deficit, they're not overtraining and got high training loads.

So yeah, that's a good topic though. That's something to probably do some more research into and some more sort of in practice research and try and see which ones obviously have different effects. I know for a fact that just from personal relationships and being in relationships with females... make it sound like I'm some sort of playboy, don't I? I'm not. Get this off. I know for a fact that the pill is the one which affects females that I've been with mood much more dramatically in other sort of method. So that's another thing to consider as well.

It's a cool... I mean, seriously, more conversations around this need to be had with practitioners and in research and stuff with combat athletes and female combat athletes, particularly female boxers, just because there's just so much we just don't know about this stuff. It's all kind of just from experience, like I said there. I had a female that was on the pill and this is how they reacted, and I had a female that was on the implant and she didn't retain as much fluid as the one that was on the pill, etc.

So it's just, it's all anecdotal. And if I was to reflect and have a third athlete that I would recommend something to, I'm only basing it off those two situations that I've had. So it's case by case and you just have to use your brain a little bit and just general knowledge of that sort of topic area.

James de Lacey43:18

Does the refilling after weigh-in strategies change much between males and females?

Jack Coak43:42

Does the refill strategy change between males and females? I'd say after the... yeah, I'd say yes. I'd say the females tend to not... well, there'll probably be someone on this will say that they will. But the females tend to generally have less of an appetite as men. Also, the males, like we just discussed earlier, would have likely, or want, sort of definitely cut more weight, so there'll be more of a desire to want to have that sort of "I need to refuel" sort of feeling, I need to like put weight on.

Whereas the females may be like, oh, my appetite's a little bit low, I don't eat too much in fear that I'm not going to perform at the way I was inspiring. Whereas males are just like, give me, give me all of this food. And then you have to rein the males back. I've noticed that the females, you don't need to kind of rein the females back. They'll eat what's...

Prescribed and what you advise them to. It's usually the males that you'll catch eating four packs of Jaffa Cakes in their room between chicken wings and eating too much and then getting like bloating and getting a bad stomach and stuff like that. So yeah, the nutrition is different. Males tend to need more carbohydrates and need to obviously eat more volume of food, so they need to be eating more regularly, so their nutrition plan be different.

Females is just the case of just stand on top of them and just saying, "Listen, don't undereat, you know, be communicate with me." And just choose foods that they've eat in the majority of camp. It sounds boring, but if I was fighting, which probably not because my face is too pretty to get punched, if I was fighting I'd be eating pretty much the most of the foods I eat day-to-day just because I don't want to eat something and then start farting or get like indigestion or something like that, which seriously impacts like my ability to to beat someone.

James de Lacey45:37

Yeah, no, fair enough. And to finish this podcast out, I want to give something really practical to the listeners too. Are you able to maybe run through say your quote unquote perfect full day of eating for say a boxer, someone who does their strength conditioning in the morning, does their boxing training in the evening? They're just kind of like recreational slash maybe like a local level competitor, they work during the day, et cetera. How would you typically structure a, or how do the different meals look throughout that day?

Jack Coak46:07

Yeah, sure. So I would even just use myself as an example, someone that would that I would literally do a strength session in the morning and then maybe do a boxing session on the evening. So I can use myself as an example.

So I would have a well-balanced breakfast before that strength session. So I'd have something like scrambled eggs, oatmeal, bagel, some veg like mushrooms or tomatoes and some avocado. Something for breakfast, relatively moderate carbs, healthy fats, good protein, nice slow release of energy before that training session. I might have a caffeine product or something like that before that training session if I'm wanting to increase my ability to like lift heavier or get some PBs, just for the real psychological mental boost more than anything, placebo or not. During that I'd probably drink like an electrolyte drink with some creatine in it.

Afterwards would then have like a recovery drink, high protein, so like a recovery smoothie or like a protein shake, really just to stop me overeating at the next meal as well. Then I'd have lunch around like 1, 2, and that'll probably be my biggest meal of the day, because like I said, if I'm going to be training later on in the day, I probably won't have dinner per se. So I'd have my main meal around 2, 3:00.

So if we've had breakfast to say 8, training at 11:00, half 12 we'd have a smoothie or like a protein shake, two, half two we'd have like a lunch. So that might be like basmati rice, chicken or turkey or like lean beef mince, two, three portions of vegetables and some sort of sauce or something like that. And then before I train at say 6:00, about half 4, 5, I'd have like a pre-training snack.

So I'd have like maybe some Greek yogurt, some strawberries, some honey and some granola. Or I might have another smoothie or something like that if I'm feeling a bit too full up from lunch.

I'd train. If I was going to train really hard, I'd have a snack before it again. So like just quickly half a banana or an energy bar or something like that. During training have like a sort of power or like a nice tonic drink just if I'm sweating loads and it's going to be a hard session. And then afterwards I then, like I said, have something high in protein and carbs and just nice and light.

So my go-to, I'd have like a three egg omelette or I'd have a bowl of Greek yogurt and some fruit, something simple like that afterwards, or just like some chicken salad or something like that.

James de Lacey48:21

Perfect. We have another comment here from Andrew Usha, but I think we covered it, but maybe I'll just see if there's any extra thoughts you have. But he's saying, "Thoughts about menstrual cycle, water retention, and contraceptive pills, et cetera." But I think we covered that. Is there anything else you wanted to add to that, Jack?

Jack Coak48:47

No, I think we've covered it. We covered it pretty well. But again, it's something that I need to do a little bit more research and I'm not naive enough to to say that I know everything. It's that's something that I personally know in practice that that I definitely need to be more aware of and do more research and have more experience in.

But the more and more female fighters I'm working with, the more and more experience I'm getting knowing how females operate and the different sort of types of contraception, how they affect weight gain, weight loss, and their mood and training performance and stuff like that.

James de Lacey49:09

So now I think we spoke about that for quite a while. Yeah, no, perfect. I'm I'm sure Andrew has some insights too, obviously with his female boxers, which might be interesting. But I think that's everything I wanted to cover today with you, Jack. Where can people find you and follow you and see what you're up to?

Jack Coak49:34

Yeah, I won't give them my address because I don't think my dad would be too happy if I— there's probably a lot of boxers that want to come looking for me, probably want to knock me out. Yeah, the best way to find me, most active is on Instagram. So just Jack Coak Nutrition on Instagram, and then my website, www.jackcoak.co.

James de Lacey49:59

Perfect. Perfect. I'll link all those up in the description for you as well, so everyone can follow along. I'm actually just going to make sure I follow you right now. Perfect, all done. But thanks for coming on, Jack. I really appreciate it.

Jack Coak49:59

Yeah, no worries, James. Thanks for having me on. It's been a pleasure, man.

James de Lacey49:59

Thank you.