How Mushrooms Can Improve Your Health w/ Jeff Chilton (SSOF Ep 82)

James de Lacey2:11

And you mentioned shiitake there. Obviously people are selling things like chaga, lion's mane. I can't remember the rest of the top.

Jeff Chilton2:45

Reishi.

James de Lacey2:45

Reishi, I think is another one. So maybe just dive into a few of those, kind of maybe what the different types of mushrooms are, and then maybe we can start one by one and go through the different types and if they actually do.

Jeff Chilton2:45

Absolutely. Well, first, let me just explain to your listeners what this organism is that we call a mushroom. It's kind of, as a mushroom grower, kind of interesting because mushrooms don't have seeds. How do you grow something that doesn't have seeds? It's like, where do I start?

Well, mushrooms have spores. The spores, the mature mushroom produces the spores. They fly out onto the ground, onto wood, out into the environment. When conditions are right—which in the Northwest is basically the fall—those spores will germinate. They'll germinate in a very fine filament called a hypha. When multiple of those filaments come together, they'll form a network. That network is called mycelium.

Mycelium is the actual body of this organism we call a mushroom. But we never see it because it's underground or it's embedded in a piece of wood or something. It's not like, here's an apple, oh great, there's an apple and there's a tree, right? No, the mycelium we don't see it.

So when conditions are right in the fall, then we'll have a mushroom pop up. And the mushroom is being fed by that mycelial network that's underground. The mushroom comes up, it goes through the stages until it's mature. The cap opens up, there's gills underneath, they produce the spores. Now we have basically the life cycle of this organism.

And what's important about that, James, is that when it comes to the marketplace and you're looking for a product, every supplement that you look at—unless it's a fine chemical of some sort, but it's a natural product—is it a root? Is it a flower? Is it the fruit? What part of this plant or mushroom is it that we're getting?

So in this case, you've got spore, which is pretty rare over here, but they use it a lot in China as a supplement. You've got mycelium, which is out and being sold as a supplement. And you've got mushrooms. So it's very important to understand that when you go looking for a supplement, you need to look, what is the part of it that's in this product?

And the fact is, is that it's the mushroom that has been used traditionally. And where we get that information is traditional Chinese medicine, because that's where we get information about a lot of the herbs that we use. So traditional Chinese medicine basically says, okay, we've been using these 8 to 10 different species for different purposes.

My business is based on those most important species. And then I go, okay, if it's being used in traditional Chinese medicine for all this time, what does the current research have to say about it? So I'm looking out at the scientific literature and there's a lot of research on specific mushrooms. So you put the two together and now you have, let's just say, the important 10 species of mushrooms. And so that's what we sell and that's what really out there in terms of medicinal mushrooms.

Or we kind of today, we kind of call them functional mushrooms because now that the psilocybin mushroom has stepped onto the stage, a lot of people now call that medicinal. And so we go, okay, that can be medicinal. We will just call ourselves functional mushrooms, even though traditionally they're called medicinal mushrooms because they've been used in traditional Chinese medicine.

James de Lacey6:21

Gotcha. So do the bottles, when people are buying mushroom extracts, they'll state whether it's mushroom or mycelium, et cetera, on there?

Jeff Chilton6:21

Not always, and that's the problem. And I try to educate people about that because what has happened is that there are companies that will grow the mycelium stage. And mycelium, it's kind of hard to picture what is mycelium. Well, if you've ever seen a mold growing, it'll start out maybe a little bit whitish or something, but all of a sudden it'll turn green or black or something like a red mold.

And once it turns colors, those are the spores. But a mold is basically pure mycelium, never producing a mushroom or any kind of organism above ground. It's just the mycelium only. Some companies will grow this mycelium on sterilized grain for maybe 30 to 60 days. At the end of the process, they'll take it out, they'll dry it, grind it to a powder, grain and all.

So what you have to look for when you're looking for a mushroom supplement is, does it say anything about grain on this bottle? Like oftentimes they'll hide the grain in the other ingredients, the fine print down below. But the problem is, is that on the front panel, it's got a picture of a mushroom and they say reishi mushroom, lion's mane mushroom. And when in fact, it's actually just this mycelium on grain.

The products are mostly grain starch, and that's the issue. It's not mushroom, but they're selling it as mushroom. So part of this just has to do with the fact that mushrooms have become so popular now that a lot of companies have jumped on this bandwagon, as happens with everything that comes along. And it's really cheap to produce this other product, so they're producing that, they're calling it mushroom.

And I think 50% of the market is those particular products. So you have to be really careful. One of the ways that you can kind of figure that out too is a real mushroom product should give you an amount of beta-glucans that are in that particular product. We analyze all our products for beta-glucans.

And just as a kind of a segue into what mushrooms do, beta-glucans are compounds that potentiate our immune system. And that is really what most of these functional mushrooms will do. They will potentiate our immune system. And considering what has happened over the last three or four years with COVID and all of that, I mean, let's just face it, having a strong immune system is really the key to our health.

And a part of that is diet, of course. I mean, you're well aware of that in your practice. I mean, the diet is just kind of the foundation of our health. And what we eat and how we live has a lot to do with our immunity.

Mushrooms in our diet or as a supplement can help us with that, and beta-glucans are the compound in mushrooms. And every mushroom has them, but certain mushrooms have beta-glucans that are more active. And those active beta-glucans, when we either consume mushrooms or supplement them with them, they are there waiting to help us for any kind of health challenge that comes along.

And so the level of beta-glucans in a product, it should be stated on the label if you're looking for

James de Lacey11:05

A supplement, that's really important. And how much are you looking for typically in...

Jeff Chilton11:05

Well, I think here's the thing: most herbal supplements, you look at them and they say, "Okay, take two capsules a day," and you're like, "Why do they say that?" Well, maybe there's 60 capsules in the bottle or 120. Oh, guess what? 60 capsules at take two a day, that's a month's worth, right? That's how they're all done.

And I tell people in general that most supplements, when it comes to the herbal market, are underpowered. And you take two a day, and are you going to get the benefits? Well, maybe, maybe not. I always think, especially if you really want to get the overall benefits, you should be taking a little more than that.

So in terms of how many to take, really again, it depends on the product and the ones that have the beta-glucans in them. Most of them are two. You could take four. I mean, really it just depends on the person, just does with diet too and what you're eating.

James de Lacey12:14

Is that how is the beta-glucan measured on the bottle? Is that, it's not a... is that milligrams or...

Jeff Chilton12:14

Well, it would be in milligrams. Just like in a mushroom capsule, let's say you have 500 milligrams of this mushroom extract, and then it would be maybe of that 500, 200 milligrams of that would be the beta-glucan.

James de Lacey12:38

Okay. Is there a ratio you're typically looking at between...

Jeff Chilton12:38

Well, no. And actually, because it's going to vary between species. The beta-glucan is not the same in every species, and that's the thing about mushrooms is that each mushroom has a different profile, whether it be nutritional or functional. The profile will be different. That doesn't mean that one is necessarily that much better than the other, but there are certain ones that are higher in beta-glucan.

And some of them, like Reishi mushroom, have other compounds that makes it kind of cut above some of the others. In fact, we could even start with Reishi. And let me just say, have you ever seen a Reishi mushroom?

James de Lacey13:04

Probably in passing on the Internet or something, but I don't think I can remember off the top of my head.

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Jeff Chilton14:25

Well yeah, Reishi mushroom has a cap on it that looks kind of like a ram's horn, and it's got a red color. It's a ram horn and it's like a piece of wood. You can't eat it. You can put it in a tea or extract it, but you can't eat it. And so it's a beautiful, beautiful mushroom.

Well, our testing has demonstrated that Reishi mushroom has one of the highest levels of beta-glucans, but it also has these compounds in it called triterpenoids, and they're bitter compounds and they're very good for the liver. So Reishi has a high amount of beta-glucans, meaning it's one of the best for immunological potentiation, but it's also got these other compounds that are really good for blood circulation, the liver.

I always say if there's one mushroom that you want to supplement with, Reishi would probably be the one. Although again, it really depends on what you're looking for. But the basics of these functional mushrooms is this potentiation of our immune system.

And look, James, one of the things everybody needs to understand is that it's not like taking an ibuprofen or something. You're, "Oh God, I feel so much better now." Or you're like, "Oh, I had a cold yesterday, but I took two capsules of mushrooms and now I'm just fine." It doesn't work that way.

It's kind of like, what are we doing when we're supplementing with a vitamin? You don't say, "Oh man, that vitamin D, I feel so much better today." No, it's not like that. You have to incorporate it into your diet or into your supplement regime, and then you look at the bigger picture down the road and you say, "Well, how was it last year? Did I have fewer colds, flu, things like that? Did I feel like I was more resistant to the kinds of stresses that are out there or the typical health challenges that we all have during the year?"

James de Lacey17:01

Nice. Are there any published studies on a lot of these effects with these, I guess, ingredients or what would you call them as part of the mushrooms?

Jeff Chilton17:01

Well, there are thousands of studies on the beta-glucans. Okay, thousands of studies. And remember this: first of all, studies with herb products, actual clinical trials, are few and far between because clinical trials are very expensive. And the companies kind of have to fund it themselves if they want... the company has to fund it themselves, and the company funds it, then every other company jumps on it and uses that same thing, right?

So there are clinical trials on certain mushrooms. A lot of the clinical trials have been done in Asia. They've done either in China or Japan. As with all science, I don't know about you, but I look at every scientific paper that I read with a lot of skepticism. I want to make sure that how they've conducted it, what they're using is something where I can understand it, really see, "Okay, this looks like a well-done study."

Whereas a lot of studies are what they call in vitro, which means either petri dishes or test tubes or something like that. And those can show a number of different things, but does it translate into something for us? I look at the mushrooms generally and I think, "Look, traditional Chinese medicine has utilized these for a long time for very specific reasons." That tells me something.

And then if we're lucky enough to have clinical trials, one of the mushrooms which I think might be interesting for your clients would be Lion's Mane.

James de Lacey18:45

Yeah, I was going to ask you about that because there's a lot of stuff about, I guess, as a brain supplement, right? Or as a nootropic, well advertised that way.

Jeff Chilton18:45

Well, it is, but it's actually a little more than that. Because what it helps with is neurological issues, including neurological damage. I don't know a lot about injuries in MMA or fighting in general, but I can imagine that the neurological issues are a big part of that.

And one of the things that Lion's Mane does is it stimulates something called nerve growth factor. So it can actually stimulate the production of nerve cells as well as help with the organization and maintenance of nerve cells. So this is something where I think it could be very useful. I mean, it's useful for all of us. My God, James, when you get older and you're going, "What was your name again? I kind of forgot it."

James de Lacey20:00

Now, thank you. I appreciate hearing that.

Jeff Chilton20:00

So, I mean, we can all utilize that. And so that's what's really going on with the Lion's Mane. And it's in this category called nootropics, and right now everybody wants something that can help them in some way to enhance certain abilities. And Lion's Mane has become very popular because of that.

And it's so funny because eight years ago we sold about 100 kilos of Lion's Mane a year. Last year we sold, I think, 10 tons of Lion's Mane extract. I know. Like, it's just... it wasn't like this was one of those major mushrooms that you hear about. All of a sudden it just kind of stepped forward.

And I think a lot because of the nootropics area and people looking at nootropics, they found Lion's Mane and went, "Oh wow, this looks very cool, let's try it." And so on. But there's some decent clinical trials in Japan using Lion's Mane with elderly populations. And what they do is they give you a cognitive test, a number of tests, and you take them on day zero, and then after 120 days you test...

Again, did you do better, did you do worse? And so they've got a couple of trials with control groups that demonstrate that you do better. And the interesting part about it is that after you stop, then they tested them 30 days after everybody stopped and they just drop back down to baseline.

So all that means, James, is you have to keep taking my product for your life. That's the dream right there. Anyway, it was interesting. And so that's kind of why Lion's Mane is so popular.

The other one that probably you'd be interested in and know about it and heard about is Cordyceps. Cordyceps is such an interesting fungus. It traditionally has been wildcrafted in Tibet. And what happens is they call it winter worm, summer grass.

A caterpillar hibernates for the winter. While it's hibernating, spores of Cordyceps invade it and take over and consume it. And in the summer it produces this little blade-like fruiting body kind of like a blade of grass.

Well, on your hands and knees, people are out in the pastures and they're looking for this thing. And when they find this little blade, they will dig around it and they'll pull the caterpillar out. And so they'll sell the whole Cordyceps with a caterpillar and this little fungal blade on it. That's why they call it winter worm, summer grass. The caterpillar is still there, looks normal, but the whole insides of it have been consumed.

Now that is currently sold for like $15,000 a dried kilogram.

James de Lacey22:50

Oh my gosh.

Jeff Chilton22:50

Nobody can afford it, right? In China they mostly give it away as a gift to people because it's too expensive for anybody to take.

But we cultivate a Cordyceps species that has been used interchangeably. It's called Cordyceps militaris. It's a beautiful orange-looking, blade-like fungus, and we can cultivate it. We cultivate it by the ton, and it is not anywhere close to being as expensive.

And what they found with Cordyceps is it does seem to enhance our utilization of oxygen.

Cordyceps has also been used for asthenia, which is fatigue. So people who are having difficulties coming out of an illness, they're prescribed Cordyceps in traditional Chinese medicine. And that's kind of to help them just get over the hump and get back to normal because they are weak, fatigued, energyless. So they prescribe Cordyceps, and it may be in fact something that can help fatigue-wise.

Certainly a lot of athletic products—Cordyceps, that seems to be where, when we sell it to different companies, that's where they utilize it.

Now, I'm not—one of the things you have to understand, I don't make claims for these mushrooms. I mean, what we do is we like to just analyze them and say, look, the compounds that science has told us are the important ones that have these benefits, we analyze for those. So when we sell a product, we will have a certificate of analysis that says, okay, we've analyzed this, it has the compounds you're looking for.

But we don't say, yeah, and it'll do this, that, and the other. We don't—we can't really—we don't make claims that way. But that's where Cordyceps tends to be used, is in athletic products. And that's where most of our customers use it.

James de Lacey25:20

Okay, okay. And then another one, I guess, is Chaga—however you say it—but that's often in tea as well, right?

Jeff Chilton25:20

Chaga is a tea, because have you ever seen a Chaga?

James de Lacey25:20

No.

Jeff Chilton25:51

Oh man, it's not a mushroom. It's actually what's called a canker. And of course, oh, I'm going to sell cankers—do you want one? No, it's like, what the hell?

So, no, what happens is birch trees get attacked by pathogenic fungus called Inonotus. It gets into the tree, it starts to climb the trunk. The tree reacts and pushes out on the bark, and out comes this black, gnarly-looking organism, I guess you'd call it. And it comes out, and it's not at all mushroom—it's just this thing that you're like, what is that? Well, that's the Chaga.

It's been used for hundreds of years as a folk remedy for tumors. It's also used for digestive issues. It's got some immunological activity. You can't grow it, so it's all wildcrafted. So people are out there in the forest and they're collecting this thing off the trees.

And again, the thing about it is too, is the tree, once it's infected with this, it's a dead tree standing. And so it'll live—it won't live quite as long as an uninfected tree, but they figured that in these birch forests up to 20% of the trees are infected.

They just continue to grow, but they have these Chagas on them, and they'll fall over at some point a little bit earlier. A lot of times they're growing on tree wood lots in Scandinavia, which probably the trees get harvested even before that Chaga gets to where the tree dies completely.

But that's another one of those things that has really come along in the last five, eight years and has really caught on.

And Chaga—one of the things I would just tell your listeners is, look, there's so much hype and hyperbole about Chaga. Chaga is the king of mushrooms. There's nothing it doesn't do. It's kind of like a panacea. And when anybody's selling a panacea, just walk away, because they've probably got more illusions of making a lot of money than anything else.

Because, look, Chaga's got its place. I don't consider it one of the top mushrooms, but it's—in terms of what we sell—is in the top five. It's really, and a lot of it is because of all the hype out there on the internet. So don't believe the hype. Again, just calm down and maybe it'll work for you. But no, it's not something that, some of the functional mushrooms, we can actually eat them, and that's what's kind of cool these days.

Is that when I was at the mushroom farm in the '70s, classical nutritionists said mushrooms have no food value. They're just kind of tasty, but otherwise—the reason they said that was because mushrooms are low in calories. Mushrooms are primarily carbohydrate, but non-starch carbohydrate. So they have a lot of mannitol. They're very high in fiber. They're a great food.

And that carbohydrate fraction is very slow-acting. So if you want carbs that are slowly running through your system rather than something that takes you up and then takes you down, like a lot of starchy foods—and maybe that's good for certain activities—but maybe having something acting slow, certainly in a normal diet, we're better off with something that's slow-acting. So that's one of the things about mushrooms that's really good.

And that fiber part is feeding our microbiome. And there's so much research coming out about the microbiome these days. It seems like we're actually more microbe than we are anything else.

James de Lacey30:08

That's awesome. And do we miss any major mushrooms that you typically like to recommend or have studied?

Jeff Chilton30:08

Well, our top sellers actually—Lion's Mane, Reishi, Cordyceps, and Chaga. The other one that I think is really great for immunity is called Turkey Tail.

And Turkey Tail has got a lot of research that's been done on it. There have been a couple of products manufactured from Turkey Tail in China and Japan that have actually been refined to the point where, in Japan, it was considered a drug because they refined this particular—the compounds in it—down to where they were selling it as a drug and prescribing it as a drug. It's really interesting.

There actually was a drug produced from Shiitake mushroom called Lentinan. So these mushrooms, they have compounds in one. I'd say is this: I always tell people, eat mushrooms, because I think, no matter what, that's the foundation of our health.

I think it's important to put mushrooms into your diet. They have a broad spectrum of benefits for people. I call them forgotten food and the missing dietary link. And you can go in the market today—back in the '70s, there's only one mushroom out there really, and that was the button mushroom. Today you could go into certain marketplaces and there's maybe six or seven different species. I mean, there's really a lot of different species to eat.

So I really say do that. If you want more, then go and supplement with mushrooms. And again, my top pick would be Reishi, Lion's Mane—I think certainly in your field is probably an absolute winner—Lion's Mane and Cordyceps. So those are the ones you'd probably want to consider.

And again, it's important, don't think that just taking two capsules a day, that's it. No, no, you should really look at it a little more closely. And again, don't expect to feel something immediately. It will come on and be part of your health regimen. And hopefully you will not get—have any illnesses—as much as you might have before, and especially when it comes to colds or viruses or anything like that.

I mean, look at what we found out with COVID in terms of the vitamin D levels in people and the fact that so many people were deficient in vitamin D and how important that is for our health.

I mean, and what's interesting, James, is we actually have a product coming out that's just been launched, and it is vitamin D from mushrooms.

James de Lacey32:56

Oh, okay, yeah.

Jeff Chilton32:56

So vitamin D that is normally in the marketplace, vitamin D3—

It comes from lanolin, which is from sheep's wool. But getting it out of the wool and then processing it into the vitamin is quite a lengthy process involving a number of chemicals and so on to get the pure vitamin D3. With the mushroom vitamin, and it's vitamin D2, all it is is a mushroom powder that has been exposed to UV radiation, and that's it. And that turns a compound in the mushroom called ergosterol into previtamin D2.

So it's an amazing product because, and especially for vegans, anybody that is not eating meat or something like that, it's perfect for them. But otherwise it's just a great product in general and it doesn't have any of that heavy processing out there. But I recommend people take vitamin D no matter what. I mean it's just a very important vitamin, and the fact that we can get it now from a natural product, I just love that. I think it's wonderful, because I think anytime we can get these important compounds from a food product or a natural product, I'm all for it. I'm totally down with that.

James de Lacey34:35

Yeah. If anyone's interested in more vitamin D, I had Andrew Marley on the podcast a couple months back and he's doing a lot of research in vitamin D with athletic performance, which is very, very interesting, all in combat athletes.

Jeff Chilton34:35

Yeah. And one of the things that I've noticed out there too is a lot of people say, "Oh, D3 is so much better than D2." Well, there's a lot of research and it's kind of a little bit of a controversy, but the fact is is that some of the world's experts have said, "Look, if you're taking it regularly, it will be doing the exact same thing and you'll have those levels of what's circulating in your system will be the same."

So that's something where it's very important, and we've got a lot of research that demonstrates that they ultimately are the same, although a lot of people like, "Well, it's a D3 and that's what we produce as humans, D3, then I want the same thing." That's okay. But again, what we've got and the research that's been done by a lot of the world's experts say that they know they're the same.

James de Lacey35:30

Nice. And when if someone's going to mushrooms, let's say myself, I want to get some reishi mushrooms or whatever, and you obviously mention some companies might give you capsules, powder, and they'll say take two, whatever it is. How do you know how much to take of these mushrooms? Is there a dose that is typically recommended?

Say for example, I know one gram of mushroom powder, because I'll give you one gram of mushrooms, and that is what you take? Or is there more of a personal preference? Maybe you're sprinkling it over like three meals a day or something and having like three grams of it. How are you deciding how much to take?

Jeff Chilton35:52

Well, my rule of thumb, and this was something that was created by a doctor, an MD who originally was born in Hong Kong and grew up and learned all about traditional Chinese medicine, came to the West. He's been practicing in New York now for 40 years. And he looked into reishi specifically, and what he came up with, he said two to five grams of dried mushroom or extract equivalent.

So for example, if you had two grams of dried mushrooms and let's just say it's a 10:1 extract, then it'd be like 200 milligrams of the extract. Now, two to five, I would say you're better off on the higher end of that with the five grams of dried mushroom or equivalent. And look, if you've got a product and it's nothing more than a ground mushroom and it's in a capsule or something, that is just so little.

One button mushroom, midsize button mushroom, is 35 grams. 35 grams, one button mushroom. That's 3.5 dried grams. That's so little. It really is. So, but again, that's kind of the recommendation that he came up with, and I think that I use that for almost all the mushrooms, so blanket across for extract.

And the thing about it is is that you really need to extract a mushroom when you're talking about supplements, because a couple things: you're breaking down the cell wall, it becomes more bioavailable, and that's really what we want. But if it's a supplement and nothing but a straight ground up mushroom, no, you're paying a lot for that. You're much better off just eating mushrooms than having a supplement like that.

James de Lacey38:01

Yeah. I'm just having a look now, just trying to see some other—I know a lot of companies kind of put together like a nootropic blend and they'll add things like lion's mane, but they're usually way underdosed, right? They're like 100 milligrams.

Jeff Chilton38:01

I totally agree. And here's another thing to consider is that some companies will put out a product and there's like seven different species. Then another company comes along and says, "Oh yeah, seven species? I'll raise you. I'm going to put out 10 species." And then another company goes, "Oh, I'm going to put out 17 species," and another one 24 species. It's just like, yeah, every time they put in more, what they do is they dilute the important species.

My prescription on all of that is basically five is the max. And beyond that, you are essentially lowering the value of the product. So all of those type, it's kind of a shotgun approach. There are companies that sell you this one thing and they say, "This is all you need to take because we've got every vitamin and herb in the world in there, and that's all you need to take." And it's just like, Jesus, it's just a marketing game, right? It's not real.

So, no, stay away from those types of products. And again, either buy a specific species, or we sell one product that is five of the top species. We call it the immune complex. And I think that's, again, don't go beyond that. Like I say, it's just these kitchen sink products. And it just, for some reason, more species or something, it always supposedly is better, and a lot of people fall for it. And it's not. It's worse.

James de Lacey39:34

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So check that. That'll also be down in the description with a discount code. But back to the podcast.

Jeff Chilton41:05

Yeah, for sure. And we will point people to your products. It's Real Mushrooms, correct?

James de Lacey41:05

RealMushrooms.com.

Jeff Chilton41:05

RealMushrooms.com. That's where you can get the products retail. RealMushrooms.com is a division of our company and it's the retail division, only sold on the internet. And then the business, the main business, always has been selling raw materials to other companies who will put those raw materials out under their own brand. So either one of those.

And when you come to those sites, we've got a lot of educational materials there. For example, in the NX site, I've got slideshows on there that show you exactly how we grow our mushrooms, show you exactly how we process them into extracts, have a lot of information that gives you much more depth on what's going on.

James de Lacey41:35

Nice. Perfect. So yeah, if you want some quality mushrooms, that's where you can go. But let's just say someone doesn't want to buy from Real Mushrooms for whatever reason and they're at this local store and they're looking at different bottles and bags of powders. What are they looking at on there? You mentioned obviously not to have grain fillers on there. Is there anything else they should look for? I mean, we talked about mushrooms. They want mushrooms versus mycelium, correct.

Jeff Chilton42:06

That's correct. So look, what you can do, because the front panel is going to be very deceitful, turn it over where supplement facts. If they talk about mycelium, that's not right. If they even say, "Oh, we're full spectrum and we have mushroom or fruiting body, mycelium," and on and on, same thing, it's a ruse. And the honest companies will at least in the other ingredients put in mated grain of some sort, oats, rice, something like that. So look for those as your key.

And then also look to see whether it gives you any actual numbers for the beta-glucans and whether they even test for it. And if they talk about polysaccharides, James, polysaccharides, beta-glucans are polysaccharides, but so are starches. So all grain starch is also a polysaccharide. So you can advertise these really high polysaccharide numbers and it means nothing, really. So that's another thing. If they're talking polysaccharides, then they have the wrong information.

James de Lacey43:43

Is there anything else other than beta-glucans that you should look for on a label?

Jeff Chilton43:43

Well, there's not a lot of companies that put out other markers. I guess you could go to their website with cordyceps. Are they analyzing for cordycepin? Cordycepin is a very specific compound in cordyceps that is a marker compound that we use. And a lot of people look at and say, "Oh, an extract. You must be building up something and leaving the rest behind." We're not. That's not what we do.

When we do an extract, the extract is going to have the full complement of everything in there. We don't want to just build one thing up. We want it to be in its natural stage in terms of what's there. So we use the dried mushroom as kind of the baseline, and then we're trying to keep all our extracts to be in line with that. So that's really important. And some people misrepresent that and say, "Oh, you're trying to build up beta-glucans and leave behind everything else." No, we're not.

And one thing too about reishi mushroom: if you are buying just the bulk powder, we, retail wise, we sell it both ways – the bulk powder or encapsulated – reishi mushroom is really bitter. So if you want to ruin your smoothie, put reishi in there. You will totally go, "Oh my God, try again," because it's much too bitter.

Most of the extracts and a lot of the extract powders in the pouches are tasty. Chaga's got a nice flavor. Lion's mane's got a nice flavor. Maitake's got a reasonable flavor. So a number of them are okay if you're into making these smoothies.

My son developed the retail line, and in the beginning we had everything in pouches, no encapsulation or something. But then people started to say, "Oh my God, this reishi, you've got to encapsulate it. I can't take it." And so we've got everything else, everything out in Rx bottles and capsules now as well as just these pouches. I love pouches. I think they're a wonderful thing. But capsules are much easier. It's a convenience-based world.

James de Lacey45:53

So how do you mix the reishi mushroom then if it's so bitter?

Jeff Chilton45:53

Well, you don't, unless the way you would do that if you just had the powder is you'd make a tea out of it. And some people are not... like, I drink my coffee black, and I will put reishi extract into my black coffee in the morning. It's just another kind of bitter note. And that's really the key.

If you don't mind bitters – and look, bitters are good for us ultimately – but just be aware of that. And so if you do have the pouch, don't put it in a smoothie. Put it in just a regular tea and then decide on how much you want in there in terms of how bitter you want this tea to be. But it will be bitter.

James de Lacey46:52

And I want to make sure I ask any question that might pop up from someone listening. But is there a timing effect at all in terms of taking these mushroom extracts, or you just take it whenever you can during the day?

Jeff Chilton46:52

Well, I think it's always better to take things like this on an empty stomach if you can, like take it before a meal, things like that. I think that's good. In terms of what time of day or anything, it doesn't really matter all that much.

Reishi actually has been used a lot for insomnia. So for some people they might do, take some, a couple capsules in the evening, or have a reishi tea in the evening. And a lot of people find good results with insomnia with reishi. So that's something that people should consider as well. Kind of has a calming effect.

James de Lacey47:40

Perfect. And then if someone wants to just go full maxi and just max out everything, you could do like five grams of all top five of those mushrooms all together, like 25 grams of powder?

Jeff Chilton47:40

Well, there's really no – they've not never found any kind of toxicity or any kind of detriments. I was talking to a traditional Chinese medicine doctor in Beijing back in the '90s at a conference there, and he said reishi was his number one herb for the liver. And he said he used 30 dried grams as a dose.

And remember too, I mean, with these other edible mushrooms, it's like, God, I can sit down and eat 100 grams of fresh mushrooms without even thinking about it. That's 10 dried grams right there. So really, no. That's the beauty of these mushrooms, is that most of them are edible mushrooms. And the ones that you don't really eat have been around for a long time, so there's a long history of use.

And we've put our concentrated extracts through a process called GRAS, Generally Recognized As Safe, which is what FDA requires for certain ingredients. And a toxicologist ran that, and every one of them was passed and is what's called self-affirmed GRAS.

James de Lacey48:50

Perfect. I think that's everything I had for you, Jeff. Where can people find you and follow you?

Jeff Chilton48:50

Well, if you come to nammex.com, N-A-M-M-E-X.com, and there is a menu there for education, hit that menu and it will take you to the slideshows on how we grow mushrooms, how we process them, and a lot of other great information.

Same on Real Mushrooms. RealMushrooms.com has a ton of great educational material. And I really love people to come to our sites for that because it just broadens out your understanding of mushrooms, what they are, what they look like, what you should be looking for in a mushroom product. It's really important. So come for the education.

James de Lacey50:02

Perfect. I'll link that all up in the description too so people can check it out. But thanks for coming on, Jeff. I appreciate it.

Jeff Chilton50:02

Oh, James, it's been a pleasure actually. It's really been great.