Plugging Your Weaknesses In Training w/ Ashley Jones (SSOF Ep. 49)

James de Lacey2:27

I love it. And well, while this podcast kind of gears towards Combat Sports, man, there's just so much to learn from all the other sports. And honestly, rugby is, I swear, is the closest to Combat Sports in terms of training you'll find. So it's awesome to chat on this too.

But I wanted to dive into some of your kind of like your philosophy, strength condition-wise. But one specific question: I know with some, a lot of your programs, you group athletes based on like metabolic, neuromuscular or speed and things like that. Do you want to maybe just dive into kind of how you came down to these classifications for the athletes and how you decide where they fit within that program?

Ashley Jones3:20

Yeah, sure thing, James. I think that stems from probably my love of mathematics and physics. And I still remember when I first met Dr. Mel Siff many years ago when he came to Australia where I was living at the time. And he, from memory, I think he had a PhD in engineering and then did a PhD across in biomechanics as well.

So one of the most brilliant men that's been involved with our industry ever. Had that rich ideas about how mathematics plays a role in physics and how physics plays a role in biomechanics and how biomechanics play such a massive role in weight training, strength training.

So I guess that's where my initial ideas, because I've always been interested in the engineering side of things. So I came up with an idea of—so let me let me go back a little bit, hopefully that'll be fine. My interest in engineering looked at, well, you've got mechanical engineering and chemical engineering. Why don't we apply this to strength training, conditioning training, and look at the neural side, neural engineering, which should be more speed and power, mechanical engineering, which would be more size and strength, looking at muscle architecture, things like that.

And then, for want of a better word, metabolic engineering, which is looking at the fitness elements associated and how we can actually use that. And I primarily do my metabolic conditioning through circuit training in the gym.

So that's how that part came to be. And then neural engineering is really about development of speed and power. And looking at a group of individuals that you get initially when you first start with that team, I've always sort of sat down, had conversations with the individual players, asked them where they feel they need to spend time training, looking at also talking to the medical staff and looking at if they've got any restraints as far as their injury history.

And so just with the neural side, neuromechanical side of my training, I'm looking at speed and power training. So really looking at application of Olympic-style lifting techniques, looking at say Dynamic Effort models associated with the Westside Lou Simmons model, looking at how exercises with a contrast plyometric, that sort of activity as far as training.

And I usually have a traffic light system depending on whether a person's fully recovered and 100% up for. So they get the green to go light, and that will sometimes often be a French contrast method in that particular type of training. It could be an amber light, which will be they're still not 100% but they're relatively good to go. So that will be a combination of a traditional weight training exercise of more explosive nature and a plyometric.

And then the red sign will be basically, well, they're not 100% but we still want to do some speed and power work. So we might just do some traditional exercises with acceleration and speed, so that sort of element.

Mechanical side is more size and strength work. So traditional strength training methods, a lot of cluster-type training, a lot of wave loading-type training as far as that's concerned, or whether a person needs a greater increase in their muscle mass. So more leaning towards a more hypertrophy-type training program. And then metabolic is all about circuits.

So, but I often found that people are hybrids of those three areas. So they'll be neurometabolic, so that means they'll be doing some neural training and also need some metabolic training. So I often like to do double-day training. So I like to do the neural training session first, or whatever the prioritization is.

If it's a metabolic neural, then the metabolic work could be done first, the neural would be done in the afternoon, although that probably goes against the grain as far as physiology is concerned. But mine's more about needs-based programming. So whatever we need to do, we need to prioritize in the first part of the day.

So determining what individual players may be, that's where the fun comes in. So conversations with the player, conversations with medical staff to see if there's any anomalies in their particular physical makeup that we need to take consideration for or the injury history that we need to address.

And also looking at their coaching staff as well. So does a player need to get bigger, stronger in their eyes? Does a player need to get fitter, doesn't need to get faster, more explosive? So we actually take all those areas and blend them in the pot and then discuss it with the player.

Because I think the player needs to be a part of this discussion. So they're actually improving the compliance of the individual to the type of training that we're actually doing. And then we roll the program out, and we roll the program for probably four to six weeks, and then we reassess, talk to the player every four to six weeks to see if they're happy with the progress.

Whatever sort of utilization of testing and measuring we've been able to do, seeing if they're trending in the right direction. And if it's all good, we might roll it out again. We might change the exercises, we might emphasize one aspect more than another. But it's really that way ongoing throughout the course of training year.

James de Lacey8:28

Okay, so let's start with the two-a-day thing there. How do you fit that in a training day? Because obviously you've got all the technical skills as well you're going to do that day. So how long are the sessions then for, for example, the neuro—was it the neuromuscular and the metabolic one?

Ashley Jones8:54

Yeah, say the neuro training, we can actually get done within about 40 minutes. I mean, none of my training program—I remember what Charles Poliquin said. Charles Poliquin was the first strength and conditioning coach that I actually saw in a seminar many moons ago. And he talked about the idea of a training session should be around 45 minutes, which is more fits the hormonal profiles of individuals.

So I've actually had that in the back of my mind probably ever since. So I would say that the neuro training session will be somewhere between, and we can get it done in as quickly as, do 25, 30 minutes really.

James de Lacey9:21

So almost like a primer?

Ashley Jones9:21

Yeah, it becomes a primer, but it's—

Got primer with a bit more off in it. So I can get that done at the beginning of the training day. So after the players were done, whatever readiness they need to do to get cleared to go, and then have that discussion with each player going through and saying whether they're 100% ready to go, then we might actually, as I said earlier, use a French contrast method for that. And we can get that done relatively quickly.

And then all the technical tactical work will be done after that. So as you said, that speed power work has primed the work on the field, and I have no injury worries because of the nature of the training session. It's going to actually set the player up rather than put the player in distress.

And then at the end of the day we'll come back and do the heavier slower or metabolic work when the training sessions are done. So they'll come off the field or whatever, and then they might have, if it's a double day training with the rugby, we might have lunch break in the middle of the day and then go back and do some unit work and then finish the day back in the weight room. And I think it sort of dovetails the rugby, so the rugby sits in the middle, beginning and more the metabolic and mechanical side of training at the end.

James de Lacey10:48

I really like that. I think that's, I think that neuromuscular side or that almost that primer stuff before the technical session is, especially in combat sports, isn't used. I think because people just, they just when they're training there's just too high volume and then they're, and then they're when they go into their technical training.

Ashley Jones11:15

And that becomes the issue. If you do that incorrectly it can cause more harm than good. That's why I really never try and do any of the mechanical style training before I do any of the running because the emphasis obviously, particularly if it's, unless it's an upper body, if you've decided to split your training day or split your training week, so you do an upper body lower body split, then sure you can do your mechanical type work for upper body before you do a rugby specific or heavy running type, either interval or volume related rugby session.

But if it's a lower body, then I want the players to be fresh to do their rugby related activities, and we hold hamstring soft tissue type work towards the end of the day when they're not going to actually do any more running for that particular day.

James de Lacey12:09

Before getting back to the podcast, I want to let you know there's a link down in the description for the Sweet Science of Fighting Underground Community. You can get all the help you need for your combat sports training. You get every single Sweet Science of Fighting training program, online course, and you get access to a range of coaches within the private Discord community. So go check that out, and back to the podcast.

And we talked about primers as well. So primers is something I used pretty extensively in rugby before matches. I don't know how much you've used them as well, but I remember I kind of took the way I did them, I listened to Nick Gill. He presented at the Sprints conference, this was at least over 10 years ago, and he mentioned about how he would make the primer the same every week. So it was always the same, it was basically one routine. Do you want to dive into that?

So I guess for anyone listening, a primer would be something like a very short and sharp speed and power workout you would do 24, even six hours before, probably not six, to like 48 hours before a big competition, that the idea would be to enhance performance of that competition. So if you want, may just jump into your method for that?

Ashley Jones13:26

Sure. I tend to move more to a player driven session towards the end of the week as we get close to the games. And my philosophy behind that is basically the players are going to solve problems on the field, so I'm going to try and transfer ownership from the program from the very early stages of the week, which is more recovery based, say game day plus two. The coaches will be more involved in game day plus three, game day plus four, and then basically the players are retaking ownership towards the back end of the week.

So that really means that I'll have a couple of different primer type sessions available for the players to choose from. Out of my experiences, I believe that some players like to do a gym-based primer where some players like to get out and do a field-based primer with some speed, some acceleration type work. And there's the rare few that like to combine a little bit with both, which I like to call a speed power combo. So I have really three options for the players to choose from.

Or if the player doesn't like to do any of those, I'm not going to force them to do something they don't want to do. Lack of compliance is going to be a program killer straight away. So they may prefer to do a more mobility session before they go out for, say, captain's run at game day minus one, or even the session itself.

But the primer related activities could be, I mean I had, when I was working in Scotland, I had one player or two players that actually really loved to do three sets of three at about 70% max power clean. And the setup at Murrayfield in Scotland, in Edinburgh, is such that the home locker room backs onto the gym. So they actually immediately go in, put the gym shoes on, head for platform, warm up, and then do three sets of three as fast as I possibly move the bar, and then walk back into the locker room and get ready and go out for pre-game warmups.

So if you don't have that, then you might do it the day before or come in the morning before, the morning of the game, and do something if you want to be gym-based. If it's more speed-based, we might do some high intensity, very low volume plyometrics, some accelerations with sleds, some towed work, some hand release type activities and all that sort of thing, or med ball throws are all very important as far as primer activities.

And then the session itself would be no more than 15 minutes. The volume is very low, intensity stays to be as close to 90 plus percent as we can get, and then back, ready to go for the game.

James de Lacey15:52

No, I like that. I think in combat sports, obviously there's the weight cut to contend with. So I think people kind of toe and fro from that. But it definitely can be done, especially if the weight's far away from the fight, or even the morning of, after you've refilled. So it's definitely some an area that I think could make its way in here too.

Just for that aspect, I mean I like that power clean one. That's really nice. And I know from myself, if I do a weightlifting session before I go to jiu-jitsu training, I feel awesome. That's my warmup. I'm ready to go and I don't feel negatively affected. I don't have, like for example, if I was doing some bodybuilding routine, I would probably have problems starting to train. But yeah, it's a different feeling.

Ashley Jones16:45

I think when I worked in basketball, which was my first professional sport back in the, or let me see, the 1990s, we used to do a hang clean push press. And if you look at the game of basketball and the, say, the shooting mechanics of most basketball players, man, hang clean push press is identical to a jump shot. And you can actually do it with dumbbells if you wanted to, and do it single arm with a dumbbell, even more specifically.

I think even more so now, after being 30 years on from my first job with basketball, I would probably do a unilateral dumbbell clean and push press as my choice for basketball, which I think makes it even more specific. And again, you only need to do three sets of three, three sets of five, and that can be done in less than five minutes and you're good to go.

James de Lacey17:47

And I wanted to come back to your circuits as well, with the metabolic loading there that you have. What, how do those circuits look? Does that take over from normal strength training then? Like that would be the strength training for the athlete? They would have just the circuits as part of that and then the other conditioning would be on the field as well?

Ashley Jones18:14

A little bit of both, actually. Because I remember I had one player and he needed to drop some pudding that he put on over the course of the off-season. And we decided to do a circuit program three sessions a week. And he was a prop, and he was really concerned that he was going to lose strength because he wasn't doing any direct strength work. And I knew he was going to get stronger, but it was a matter of basically doing it and proving it to him in the process.

So we did this for about three weeks where we just focused on what I've termed a beastly circuit, which is six exercises performed for six reps of each exercise as a continuous...

You try not to put the bar down once you've picked it up for the 36 reps. The standard one I used to do was power clean, deadlift power clean, front squat, push press, bent over row, RDL to finish off. So six exercises with the same weight and then they jump on and do a cardiovascular movement, 2 to 3 minutes of high-intensity work. Could be an interval type program, could be a Tabata style, it could be a set distance and how quickly they can do it on a rower machine, a climber machine, or some something method.

Then we went straight into a strength program and he was actually using about 10 to 15% heavier than he'd used in the previous season on his maximum strength workouts. So it transferred really well. He was over the moon as you can imagine. He was dropping body fat, improving his metabolic condition, and was actually getting stronger at the same time.

But for most individuals I like to include a strength component, either before primarily because of the neuro. So it could just be a simple lower body push or pull and an upper body push or pull. So the volume's quite low and it could be like three sets of three, three sets of five as far as the strength protocols are concerned. And then the circuit and then finishing off with what I've termed what's called a CARE program, which is a core accessory rehab exercise program.

So whatever that individual has, areas of weakness, previous injury history, the injuries that are most prevalent in playing that position on the field need to be addressed. So it might be neck, hamstring, calf, rotator cuff, or something like that. So that will finish the program.

So you're looking at that strength component first, again probably inside of 15 minutes. You're looking at the circuit 25 to 30 and another 10 to 15 minutes for CARE at the end of it. So again you're looking at a pretty solid hour and you're basically done, looking at all aspects.

James de Lacey21:33

How much weight was this prop using for that circuit?

Ashley Jones21:33

He was using a 60 kilogram bar.

James de Lacey21:33

Yeah, that's still tough.

Ashley Jones21:33

Oh, if you've never done it before I've had people just doing the empty Olympic bar and having to basically stop halfway through.

James de Lacey21:33

Might have to give this a go maybe over the weekend just to see. I think that would fit really nicely with any Grappler, jiu-jitsu, judoka, any of those sports. I think a beastly circuit would be my go-to.

I'm a big fan of the Olympic lifts for grappling as well and weightlifting complexes. I'm actually going to do a bunch of YouTube videos on that soon, so everyone listening look out for those coming. But I wanted to also cover how you progress some of these because you mentioned there you might do say 4 to 6 weeks of whichever one they need, then they might shift to kind of another goal depending on what they need.

But say it's the same thing, neuro, metabolic, and maybe they finished the 4 or 6 weeks and they still need to continue. What kind of changes are you making then throughout to keep progressing?

Ashley Jones22:37

I think I've used over the years a quadrant management system for training and the four quadrants based around a player's experience and training age. So the initial quadrant, quadrant one, is the actual players don't get a choice. It's a dictatorship and I'm the dictator and you're going to do what I think you need to do, end of story. So that's often the way with younger athletes and players that have come from a different program that I've yet to be able to assess. So use that first 4 to 6 weeks as the dictatorship.

The next quadrant is they get one degree of freedom, which is exercise selection. They'll decide which exercise within the categories that we're actually utilizing, whether it's like a hinge, whether it's a knee dominant move, it's upper body push, upper body pull, something like that. We'll have a big chart on the wall and they can actually determine which exercise they want to use. But I'm always there saying, well, you used a flat bench press last week, I'm sorry, last block of training, 4 to 6 weeks.

How about we change that into more an incline bench press now or let's go dumbbell bench press rather than bench press with a bar or let's change it up to a Swiss bar bench press or something like that if you've got the luxury of specialty bars and things like that to work with.

Then we move on to quadrant three, which is the player in discussion with the coach determines what sessions each week they actually do. And this is where what we talked about earlier about that neuro, neuromuscular, metabolic. They might be neuromuscular metabolic, so we need to do one maybe pure neural session towards the towards game day minus two. We might do a metabolic session on the Monday which will be game day plus two, which acts as a nice flush for the player as well.

And then we might do more of a mechanical based program on game day plus three. But the player and what they need, whether they need to do two sessions a week, three sessions a week, and how we orientate that, the player has a decision-making process in that.

Fourth quadrant is myself as a strength and conditioning coach steps back and works more as an advisor within the weight room. Obviously I'm still going to be checking technique and I'm going to jump in if I don't see something I like or something could be injurious, I'll put a halt to it. But the player determines their sets and reps, percentages of load, based around their experience, experiential learning.

So you've got a combination of what I've used over the years and I've just looked at a formula for it is that wisdom, particularly training wisdom, equals knowledge raised to the power of experience. So with a player, and again we should never discount the experiences that the players bring to our discussions as far as training their bodies. So they're going to know more about themselves than we'll ever know.

So by educating, and this is the big key to I believe strength and conditioning programs that are effective over time, is the strength and conditioning coach is an educator all along, all the way. So continually saying well, having a look at this is a cluster, this is what a cluster does, this is what wave loading does. So a player should be armed with different techniques to develop themselves over period of time. You actually don't become redundant as a strength and conditioning coach, but your education program should allow them to have a greater understanding about what the strength and conditioning program is trying to do.

James de Lacey26:24

Yeah, no, for sure. And I just wanted to get your take on the idea of exercise selection or at least exercise progression through blocks. Because there's a few different thoughts, I guess. If you take a pure powerlifting philosophy, it's trying to stick with the same exercises over and over. I mean even I think Dan Baker when he was at the Broncos talks about they squat every week no matter what and they squat deep.

Myself, I tend to like to change or progress exercises every 4 to 8 weeks depending. I think it keeps it fresh for the athletes as well and keeps them going in the gym and that novelty effect is also a thing. But what's your take? Are you sticking to like the same thing or are you looking to do variation throughout the training year?

Ashley Jones27:19

I am very conjugate based in my ideas, so very influenced by Louie Simmons and Westside. And I like the idea of sticking with one exercise for a good 4 to 6 weeks. And as a player becomes more experienced, I think they can actually drop that down, probably not to the same extent that Westside would do with changing exercise every week and every session. I don't think our guys are that experienced in the weight room no matter how long they've been actually training for their sport.

But it's the actual nature of changing the stimulus to avoid accommodation as the primary example. But also to ensure that you're taking on a more multi-angular, multi-planar physical development program. So obviously bench press is the king upper body pressing movement. Is it the best exercise for a rugby player? I'd question that. But an incline bench press, a push press, you look at all those type of movements are affecting the upper body pushing category in certainly different ways by using different loads.

And you have a progression of like almost an undulating periodization loading based on exercise and the weight that you actually use. So not necessarily adjusting the load you use on the one exercise, just adjust the exercise to change the loading. So you could go military press, incline press, push press, bench press over four weeks if you wanted to go back to one exercise a week and see how that would change the undulation of loading based on just the exercise selection.

James de Lacey29:08

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Yeah, that's a good point too. And I think as well, I know you're a big fan of specialty bars too. I mean, can't wait to get a whole bunch of specialty bars. I mean, I have my fat grips all the time to my bars.

Ashley Jones30:01

I think my record is saying if I ever set my own weight room up for conditioning rugby players again, I probably wouldn't have too many straight bars in the place. Obviously I'd want to have a couple of good Olympic style bars for doing Olympic variation work with, and a good power bar powerlifting bar for deadlifts and squats, but that's if the player has no injury history that they can actually perform those more traditional movements with those more traditional bars.

But I am a massive fan of the safety squat bar, the trap bar, and the Swiss bar. They'd be my three go-tos. So rather than the original barbell big three of the squat and bench press, I'd be looking at the big three of specialty bars of trap bar, Swiss bar, and safety squat bar.

James de Lacey30:34

I found a similar camp where if I had the option, no player would bench press with a barbell. It would be either fat axle bars, Swiss bars, anything else like that. The difference, if I do bench press or bench press off pins, I always add the fat grips and the difference it makes is unreal. To thicken the hands and the wrist, if you haven't done it for a long time and you get heavy loads and you have the fat bar, your thumbs hurt and it conditions the hands like crazy. That's incredible.

Ashley Jones31:36

Particularly with working with grapplers and fighters, I recently bought a revolving axle bar from Elite FTS and it's got, it's nice as well because axle bars in the past have been quite smooth. And doing hang pulls or hang cleans with this almost 3 inch axle bar has been unbelievable. It's incredible.

James de Lacey31:36

The fat power clean or press is one of my favorites too. That is one of my go-tos. But I want to bring this back a little bit to the conditioning side. And obviously there's different, I've talked to a range of different coaches on this. You've got an energy system or physiology kind of dominant thought process of, "Hey, we're prescribing this because we're after these specific adaptations." And there's more of a work capacity kind of thought like outputs, like, "Hey, we need to just be able to do this amount of work with this amount of rest at this whatever output over and over and over again and improve that."

I guess where do you kind of fit in that camp? Are you prescribing conditioning based on, "Hey, this is aerobic, anaerobic, etc.," or are you looking more at, "Hey, we just need to be able to do 30 seconds at higher intensities, etc."?

Ashley Jones32:41

It's a very interesting question because I would say that my conditioning programs and things that I've used over the years is a combination of development of a really good solid aerobic system first and foremost. And I think that's the key to particularly most amateur rugby players. If they really improve their aerobic conditioning, they don't need to worry about everything else. I think being strong, being skilled, being strong and being fit are a big three for amateur players.

When we get more into the professional level, obviously we've got elements where we consider about, and the phrase "worst case scenario" has been used quite a lot for the top training. So we're looking at within a game where we've got a certain number of meters per minute if you have the luxury of using GPS, and we want to train above say 15 to 20% above that worst case scenario in a game, which we can address by using modified games and modified conditioning elements within the game itself.

So we might play a shoulders-on two-ball touch for say 3 to 5 minutes at game speed and above. And I will get most of my these days conditioning for the game based around using those particular games.

Now unfortunately the only problem we have with less skilled players is that the ball will be dropped through to poor decision making versus poor skill levels. So the actual quality of the session knows dives really effectively. Hence why I really think that amateur players really emphasize the skill development side of things.

You're working and you have a low skill level, then we need to introduce some of these more repeat speed type sessions, grids and areas of training where players don't necessarily enjoy them, but they know they're going to get better results performance through them. But ideally I'd like to use as much small-sided games as possible to get that, I think it's also been called fuel mixed conditioning over a period of time, or also using a game with a wrestle component.

I love using a say a 5 minute block of a small-sided game, a short rest, and then a 5 minute block of wrestling, and then going back and forward between them for say two or three times.

James de Lacey35:44

That's a classic rugby session that one. I think for any of the combat athletes listening, it'll be aspiring stuff there. But it's funny because you mentioned obviously the worst case scenario stuff. So what we did in Romania is we actually tried to bring it into the idea that we play the structures faster. We wanted the players to, so we did over what was it, 10% over the peak meters per minute of our fastest match in a 3 or 5 minute block, and then we just played structures attack structures with the shields.

And then when they got close to the try line, they just kicked it down and repeat, or we throw a ball in and things like that.

So similar, I don't know if it was the right way to go about it or not. I mean, dudes were blowing afterwards and they'd have to play that structure at speed. But whether it translates to a game, because obviously in a game you've got more things to contend with than the ruck and if things go wrong and things like that.

But I don't know, it's something I'm still wrestling with in my head, also still wrestling with the idea of conditioning not just being about energy systems but again being about outputs as well, and not everything has to be about trying to target some certain adaptation. It can be just improving the work capacity of a certain interval.

Ashley Jones37:00

I think the remaining experience you had there is just conditioning has to be to make players better rugby players. And I've had some really good rugby players who have almost the cardiovascular systems of plants, use oxygen, they don't produce it. So the other way around, sorry.

And I had a classic, I had a Fijian winger once, and back in that day when the NZU used to have a 3K time trial as their principal aerobic test. So you're looking at a man who is so explosive over a short distance and there 3K is going to be absolute diabolical. I mean, I think in this particular case, I think I actually walked 3K as fast as he ran it.

James de Lacey37:37

I've had a player like that before. At my first gig in Romania we had a Tongan guy, he was one of our best players and he was a fullback. But I think his 1.6K time trial that we did for a mass test was little slower than the props.

Ashley Jones38:13

This particular player said, he said tongue in cheek, but I think he was a little bit more serious than just tongue in cheek, he said, "Hey Ash, how about I just run 30x100s and you just add the times up?" And happily run 30 by 100. An example, this guy was so slow that he would be lapped by players.

But I remember this one game that he played in, and we were on full attack and he was pushing forward on the left wing side. And the ball got turned over and the ball went pass, pass, pass on the opposition to their opponent's left wing. And this player had to get himself off the ground, he wasn't a small player, but he had to get off the ground, assess, turn and chase. And he caught the opposition player just as he was about to score the try, grappled with him, stripped the ball, and started running back up to the 22.

No amount of 3K time trials is going to give him that.

James de Lacey39:22

For sure. What would you do, we've got four minutes left before this thing cuts off, but what would you do if say an athlete had that kind of profile, they were super explosive, just didn't have the engine, but they need to have the engine to compete in a game of rugby or in combat sport?

Ashley Jones39:55

I think this is where sled walking and sled work is a much underused area of conditioning for rugby players. I think particularly what Louis Simmons has done a lot with the sled walking is looking at that exaggerated power stride of the step. And if you read some of his work working with runners, particularly say 400, 800, 1500 meter runners, and looking at towing or pulling the sled for a period of time associated with their particular event, and not only is it protective of soft tissue and hamstrings and calves, it's actually really develops the strength levels in those muscle groups as well and also gives a great metabolic effect.

I mean, if you've ever, again, perfect for grapplers again, you imagine hanging on to a...

Sandbag? That reminds me of Dan John. Sled at the same time. I've done nothing better as far as specific transfer to your sport of rugby or your sport of grappling.

So I would, and I've written recently in Elite FTS about the conundrum about the bigger players are usually the people who need more fitness, but we can't actually train them the same way for fitness because they can't tolerate that level of loading because they're big guys in the first place. So we need to find different methods of utilization of, say, off-conditioning walking, general preparation physical preparation, so GPP work has to be high priority.

That metabolic group that we need to work with, and I think I'd do a lot more of that work still based all around my conditioning games. Because obviously the players, they like doing it, it's a lot more transfer of coordination and spatial awareness and teamwork and just having a good time. But by adding that GPP work at the back end of that particular session, we can actually cover those bases as well.

James de Lacey42:16

That's awesome. We'll have to end here, Ash, with a couple of minutes left. But if people want to find what you're doing, follow you, all of that, where can they do that?

Ashley Jones42:16

I think the probably the two best places, I don't have much of a social media presence, but I write a regular monthly column for at elitefts.com. I'm in my 11th year of writing that column, so all my articles are up on that website for you to go back through and have a look at things I've written in the past.

But the other one I spend a lot of time working with is the Facebook page, the National Strength and Conditioning Association Rugby Special Interest Group. So if you went to NSCA Rugby SIG on Facebook, we have a thousand members now on that particular website, and James, you're one of them, I know.

And I try to do is put as much rugby information from the game itself, from sevens, rugby league, 15s, women's rugby, as well as well as conditioning and strength and different training programs as well. So that particular website, I spend quite a bit of time on and people can sign up and we can develop things from there.

James de Lacey43:14

Perfect. I'll link those in the description, but thanks for coming on, Ash. I really appreciate it.

Ashley Jones43:48

Well, thanks very much, James. It's been great chatting to you and I look forward to doing it. And hopefully you'll be at the NSCA National Conference in July and we can actually have a chat.

James de Lacey43:48

Yeah, we'll definitely chat. Awesome.