Cody Roberts on Strength Equipment Secrets For Maximizing Strength & Power Development (SSOF Ep. 21)

James de Lacey3:12

Nice, nice. Yeah, I mean, for anyone who's not an American, hasn't seen the college system setup here, it is, as you mentioned, you have all the stuff at your disposal at the team level, whereas if you're from I guess anywhere through Europe typically, or even Oceania, and you're looking at a team, you're not going to have half that stuff to use or for the athletes to participate with.

I mean, you got—I mean, often you might have Kaisers, but you're not going to have like force plates with diagnostics like readily available. You're not going to have things like flywheels where you're going to have enough where a whole team can train on them. You might just have like one device. So it's crazy like this scale at the college level here. And I mean, as you mentioned, they might not be elite athletes, but man, some of these college guys, they're essentially training like full-time athletes at the college level. Like the schedules have a ridiculous...

Cody Roberts3:39

Yeah, yeah, it's rapidly growing and changing, especially with the NIL stuff that's happening. COVID was a huge setback, I think, for all athletic departments, but I think everybody has continued to kind of rise and flourish from it. And it's kind of wild west right now with some of the NIL stuff and some of the money that's coming back in and the revenue and things like with us, especially being in the Big Ten and the Big Ten expanding in the next couple years with UCLA, USC joining. It's pretty wild to see the drastic growth and the direction it's headed.

James de Lacey4:32

Because the NIL stuff, I think I heard on the radio was like some players are being paid like 100K a year, some college players or something like that. Is that right?

Cody Roberts4:32

Oh, at least. Yeah, yeah, we have a player here that is rumored to be making a million dollars by the time she graduates.

James de Lacey4:32

What?

Cody Roberts4:32

And rightfully so. I think they should. I mean, I think they have an—they should be able to take advantage of the university, right?

James de Lacey4:58

Right, yeah. So what sport does she play then, that she's making that much money?

Cody Roberts4:58

Women's basketball. Yeah, she's an incredible high-level women's basketball player. She's got a great future ahead of her. And it's a slippery slope because these kids—they're kids, and they have to, they're growing up really fast.

I mean, but even then, there's like—I think LeBron James' son has got more deals than anybody and he's still in high school. And it's just wild times where people have the opportunity to kind of serve in this influencer role, make money on the side being a sponsor and things like that. And props to them. That's the deal. It's their name, image and likeness. They should be able to kind of maximize that.

And then obviously they have to kind of uphold their end of the bargain too, because I think they are running a business of themselves, but then also they have to basically—they have basically a contract with their university as far as, like, I want to be a student athlete, I'm going to go to school, I'm going to get my degree, those sorts of things, I'm going to be a member of the team and the program. So I think coaches have to navigate that too as well, to just kind of keep that beast under control, because it could easily get out of control.

James de Lacey6:24

Yeah, well, hopefully rugby and combat sports can join the NIL money there when it gets big enough at the college level.

Cody Roberts6:24

And that's where it's like, yeah, some of the kids I work with—I work directly with track and rowing, so not really like revenue-generating sports—but I've had a rower that has really kind of just taken advantage of her platform and she's created this like "Unbreakable Female Athlete" kind of brand and slogan and just created merchandise, whether it be like bands or shirts and things like that.

And it's just kind of—it's one of those words, and then I think kind of just the sharp kind of black and white of it. And I think it just kind of develops this mantra and mentality of the challenges and struggles that everybody goes through, but just at the end of the day you're kind of unbreakable.

So it's been cool on with her and seeing her try to grow this business and basically just grow up really fast and take advantage of the platform she's on.

James de Lacey7:43

That's awesome. Well, I wanted to dive into some of the equipment you're using and kind of how you're using it. The first one is flywheels, which you already mentioned, and I believe this is probably one of the more slept-on, I guess, pieces of equipment and training modalities within combat sports. I mean, within many sports, but combat sports specifically. I don't think I've seen or heard any kind of fighters using this piece of equipment.

And I guess I've talked about flywheel training a bit to the Sweet Science of Fighting, I guess, people on the email and stuff. I actually took a lot of the methods I took from your mini on Science for Sport, that was really good, that ran through all the various ways of doing the eccentric actions on it. So maybe for the—maybe explain what flywheel training is and then why, I guess, why you use it in terms of maybe adaptation and things like that. Then we can dive down the rabbit hole in some different ways to use it.

Cody Roberts8:15

For sure. Yeah, so appreciate you checking out that course and glad you were able to take some stuff away from it. But where it kind of came from is back in the '90s, it was an opportunity for astronauts to kind of train or do resistance training essentially in a zero-gravity environment. So it works off of this flywheel essentially, and you're not moving a...

Load or mass-based resistance. You're actually just reacting to the inertia, so you're generating inertia in this wheel and then you're controlling the inertia that you built in the concentric action. So I perform a concentric action, whether it's a push or a rotation or standing up, some sort of extension pattern, and then I'm resisting that inertia on the way back down as that flywheel recoils.

So the two biggest items that it offers is this opportunity for repetitive, uncontrolled quick returns, which I think mimics especially from the running and sprinting side. But it's a different type of stimulus than what you would get from a mass-based resistance or something where you are ultimately in control of the time to complete each rep. One to two to three. When you do a flywheel, once you start, as hard as you work it, it will work that hard for you.

And so there's opportunities then on the eccentric overload side, whether it be a 2:1 method, whether it be an assisted method, whether it be some sort of advantaged position where maybe you perform a deadlift. That's going to generate more inertia on the way up, and then you don't flex your knees on the way down. You just keep your knees unlocked and perform that RDL, so that's going to give you that overload to the hamstrings and through that hip hinge position.

Same thing would be said for maybe another example would be like a bicep curl, where I use my legs on the bicep curl, but then on the way down I just let the arms do the work—no legs involved—and so I'm overloading that eccentric action through my bicep sort of thing. So the opportunities are there, but then they're obviously in a repetitive sense again, so we get this uncontrolled, cyclic action that I think is pretty unique.

As well as the opportunity to do eccentric overload repetitively. And I say that repetitively because your other opportunities would be, whether it be a weight release or those types of methods with more mass-based resistance where I overload the eccentric side, that's usually like a one-and-done rep sort of deal. So that's where the flywheels can be pretty unique.

The other thing that I think it offers is you're working at much higher velocities than you otherwise could with free weights. Because again, you're working off inertia, but then you're stressing those longer muscle lengths. So when we're stressing those longer muscle lengths, depending on the muscle, specifically maybe like hamstrings, back, that sort of thing, we could possibly have a more beneficial response, whether it be hypertrophy or strength, because I'm stressing and straining that lengthened position.

James de Lacey12:12

Yeah, for sure. We're going to continue diving into this because there's still heaps of stuff to cover within the whole flywheel training paradigm as well. So you mentioned obviously eccentric overload as I guess one of the main points of training on the flywheel. Do we maybe dive into, I guess, why eccentric training is important for pretty much every sport really that has some kind of explosive action?

So why eccentric training is important and what eccentric training actually is, because a lot of people might get confused with, "Hey, I'm doing eccentric training" while they're doing a 4-second down squat and standing back up. Maybe just explain the difference there too.

Cody Roberts12:45

Yeah, so in effort of basically just building force, getting stronger, your muscles are going to be strongest during that eccentric action, during the eccentric contraction. So if we can take advantage of that, we're actually exposing the athlete to the highest forces that they'll experience within their muscles. So hopefully we're building a more durable tissue, a more robust tissue, because you're exposing them to this maximal force that otherwise you wouldn't expose them to if you're just performing a concentric action.

So the example that I always give people is when you're learning how to do a pull-up, and if you cannot do a pull-up right now, you should, and probably hopefully, I guess, you should probably still be able to control yourself down on that pull-up. You might not be able to pull yourself back up chest to the bar, but you could start above the bar and control yourself down slowly. So that would be an example of I'm stronger eccentrically than I am concentrically.

Same thing to be said for a bench press. I can control that bench press down to my chest, that bar to my chest, but I might not get it off. So again, another example that you are stronger and you are able to experience and expose yourself to more force, more tension on the eccentric side than you are on the concentric side. Same thing for like a Nordic hamstring.

So these are all examples of stresses and stimulus that just help to build a more robust tissue. So we're getting stronger tissue, we're getting possibly lengthening tissue. This is probably one of the best ways to increase flexibility and range of motion—it's basically like stretching under load and exposing that body to that tension.

So that's why and how eccentric can be so beneficial. Because experiencing that on the eccentric side really taps into that neuromuscular system to make it as efficient as possible, strong as possible, and then make that tissue itself as durable as possible.

James de Lacey14:38

Nice. Yeah, that durability is vitally important too. And I think as well, obviously you've got all those important factors, and you've also got the fact that eccentric training can help improve the stretch-shortening cycle—obviously that ability to transition from eccentric to concentric well.

So obviously you're getting improved explosive actions. Obviously for track and field that's vitally important. Even for combat sports, especially for strikers that need to be explosive there, even wrestlers that are taking heavy shots as well, they need to be able to explode from whatever they're doing and utilize that elastic energy.

But obviously with the eccentric overload, so you mentioned about you basically get back what you give. So with the flywheel, if I maximally accelerate the squat up, then I'm only going to get pulled back down with the same inertia as I moved up. So essentially you're equal, one to one. But you mentioned obviously there's ways that you can overload the eccentric on the flywheel, so it's no longer a one-to-one up and down. You're getting like a one and maybe a one and a half back in terms of extra inertia. Do you maybe explain some of those concepts, exercises there?

Cody Roberts16:11

Yeah, so the biggest thing that you've got to get athletes to understand is when they're performing that squat, you have to continue to accelerate through. You can't just simply get it started at the bottom. And I think this is where a velocity-based device and things like that, just continuing to drive that intent and get that feedback—and there are opportunities, I know within kBox itself, I forget what it's called, K Meter. So they have actual objective feedback for you that shows you this.

Vmax Pro is actually a velocity-based accelerometer that actually has created a clip that I played with this summer that's been pretty fun, that just gives you basically tons of data back, really on the power side, maybe on the wattage side.

But my point is that on the squat, your weakest position is going to be the very bottom of the squat, and so that's what you're ultimately challenging. But the best way to challenge it is continuing to accelerate that wheel as you stand up. So if you think about the concept of bands and chains, as you stand up you're lifting more chains, you're putting that body under more tension, and you're able to overcome that.

So it's that accommodating resistance. So if you continue to accelerate that wheel on the way up and maximize your efforts at the top, that's when you're going to generate the most inertia. So you have to continue to accelerate through that motion. And then depending on how you react to the eccentric portion, that could potentially overstress that very bottom position if you accelerate there quickly.

So if I stand all the way up and accelerate through and maximize that last little bit, where I'm my absolute strongest in the top quarter of my squat, and that wheel is just humming around, and then if I drop down into my squat relatively quickly, that inertia is going to hit me at a weaker point than what I otherwise would have been able to create. So that's an important piece in of itself, is just continuing to accelerate through.

I'm not going to say that that's going to be day one with an athlete. I think more than ever, I've learned with the kBox specifically. They have two large wheels—I think it would be like 0.5 kilogram or something like that—but two large wheels. And that helps to slow the movement down. So doing anything slow first before we start to add velocity too much can really help to just build force, build strength, and build an understanding for the movement.

Think about it, that's a lot of plates and more inertia to overcome. So it just allows more time for that to happen, whereas if I'm just using a small wheel or something less, I really have a minimal amount of time to really generate that inertia before I finish my action.

Other ways to really advantage that concentric action: if I held on to something and used that with assistance, if I had a coach or somebody else that had a handle that assisted on the way up, it's just what can I do to create as much inertia as possible on the way up. And then on the way down I have to be able to take that myself through whatever it is, whether it's a lower body lift or an upper body type deal like we talked about.

But yeah, that's really the big opportunity is to just generate as much inertia on the way up, and however you do it, there's different methods and ways to go about it. But that's the trick to it.

James de Lacey20:04

Yeah, for sure. Especially, yeah, I like how you mentioned to push it all the way up. If John Cronin, Professor John Cronin, here used it on a force plate and compared it to squats as well, and you see it actually acts the force, acts similar to a ballistic jump on the flywheel, which is interesting because obviously you're getting acceleration throughout the whole concentric phase. Whereas if you're just doing a normal barbell squat, you have to decelerate almost the last half of the lift to essentially stop the bar. So that's another advantage to mention there, it's going all the way through.

And I will also mention in terms of flywheel equipment, if anyone's interested, if you check out xfly as well, I'll put a link in the description to them. That's a company that I've talked to quite a lot, and they even have an eccentric motor as well. So essentially, while you can do delayed braking actions and what you're mentioning there, also a way where you can set a motor where it will give you back 10% on the way down of whatever you concentrically—

Cody Roberts20:52

Yeah, so that's another, that's another way you can do this. It's actually really cool. So you can set it to 10 to even up to 80%, but 80% is crazy. Like, you're going to kill yourself. So to like 10%, you push up maximally with the squat, and then it's going to return you the same inertia plus 10% back down. And it's, yeah, it's killer.

James de Lacey21:17

It's killer. That's awesome. Wow, that's awesome.

Cody Roberts21:17

Yeah, it creates some challenges because it's honestly probably best in a one-on-one situation. We're fortunate and we believed in it enough that we invested on the team side. So, you know, we have a room with like 14 of them, and I work with a 60-woman rowing team that I can implement squatting and hinging and deadlifts with them. But yeah, you could go so deep and really have a whole session on it with one or two athletes easily.

James de Lacey21:49

Does xfly have a—like, so Ecentric has the K pulley option. Does xfly have anything like that?

Cody Roberts21:49

Yeah, they've got the rack mount, and they also have a rack mount with a motor. So you can do eccentric motorized eccentric overload through rotation, through chops if you wanted to be crazy. So you can do your hard, um, even just standing trunk rotation and then get 10 or 20% back this way. Bang. Wow. So it's, yeah, it's pretty damn good. And that's where I think on the fighting side, especially the throwers I work with.

James de Lacey22:17

Yeah, because you've got, similar to, the K pulley?

Cody Roberts22:44

Yeah, the K pulley is special because it teaches you how to use the ground and really slows down that lower body, using the legs to generate power and force that otherwise you wouldn't experience with any sort of mass-based resistance or even a med ball throw, because it's just maybe too light and too fast. And like you were saying with the free weight, there's no eccentric load to it. So I think that's a means of training that often gets lost, is loading that eccentric kind of trans first playing position.

And so those are special things, but I think the biggest thing is just simply using the ground and pushing down, but even though you're moving, chopping like that sort of deal. That I think creates this more holistic athletic movement. I don't—it's never going to say that, oh, this is your go-to strength exercise, but I think they offer some really special sport-specific, task-specific stresses that you can't really get anywhere else, whether it be throwing, swinging, anything like that.

James de Lacey23:46

Yeah, for sure, man. Like, obviously that eccentric portion, yeah, as you mentioned, of those rotations and being able to load heavy in maybe a stretch rotated position or out here, wherever you're going. I mean, you can't really do that any other way. Especially as you mentioned, using the legs as well to generate that force, you could do that heavy and have that come back and have to resist 10 or 20% more force than you rotated with.

Think what kind of, I guess, stress and adaptation you're going to get from doing something like that on the trunk and the muscles here, to be able to rotate harder and faster and things like that.

Cody Roberts24:44

Well, and too, it's the same thing as the hinge. So if I talk about trying to get my hamstring flexibility improved, doing some flywheel RDLs potentially could create this fascial lengthening sort of deal, and you could—I mean, I don't know the research, this is more just theoretical—but you could play with seeing if you can improve maybe that range of motion through the transverse plane.

Or even with golf, I know you talk about the X Factor, kind of connects with any sort of striking, throwing, hitting, where it's like how much separation can I get between my hips and my shoulders? And you literally could possibly improve that by loading that eccentrically.

James de Lacey25:12

Yeah, for sure. I mean, if people listening are unaware, static—people will often do static stretching to get more flexible. Only problem is, static stretching doesn't result in structural changes to the muscle. You might have neurological changes where your stretch tolerance and things might improve temporarily, but over the long term you want to make structural changes, right? Because you don't want to have this potential passive flexibility that you can't control that range of motion.

Obviously, with the eccentric training, you're essentially lengthening the muscle fiber, so you have a structurally longer muscle. So you're not going to run into those same issues that you might have if you're doing static stretching. Then, obviously, as Cody mentioned, if you're doing, I guess, heavy or eccentric overload doing rotations, yeah, as you mentioned, you might be able to get that more hip and upper body separation and be able to really generate a lot of whip on maybe, for example, throwing kicks and things like that. You have a lot of whip with that leg trailing behind the hip and things like that.

So yeah, there's different applications you can use with a flywheel. But I guess from your experience of using it quite often, do you find there's a certain time of the year that you do it, don't use it, or are there modifications that you make depending on time of year? For example, if they're in season and they have a lot of maybe technical training, or the offseason and they don't have as much technical training.

Cody Roberts26:33

Yeah, so that's a great question. I think the biggest thing is appreciating the stress, and so I think bringing it on has to be navigated appropriately. So with that, I think introducing it in the offseason, especially like I said, with the more wheels, more inertia, just learning the movement patterns. And then I like the higher forces early on, and then progressing to maybe higher velocities as you get into more of a preseason, in-season sort of deal.

And then once you're in season, though, more so in that maintenance phase, I think you maybe gravitate back towards that higher force, heavier wheel sort of deal. And so that's really the big thing: you want to bring it on to where they can learn it and attack it, and then give them some time also to really get after it in that early preseason, to really expose themselves to—like, yes, eccentric actions are important, but I also think, especially for the fact that most all sports hinge on speed, I think exposure to higher speed, higher velocity repetitions is important.

So kind of going heavy to light, almost as far as the wheels you're using. And then in season, that's where flywheel training has been revamped. I know, I think, from Ecentric concept, they really got into their space in the training space more so with high school hockey players. Because it was, you know, you, when you—

Come in the weight room, there could be some apprehension around putting weights on the bar. And so I don't have to worry about any sort of weight. Like you had said, it's like you get out of it what you put into it. And that's where it gets a little dicey, and the objective readings are helpful for the coach. Because at some point once you learn it, you need some feedback of as far as what's good, what's fast, am I doing well, am I not.

But the great thing about flywheels are that variable resistance. So as I fatigue, what the idea around the variable resistance is you're ultimately doing more, arguably, effective reps. Because however hard I push, that's how much it responds to me. And so over a set of maybe 8 to 12, even higher rep sets, maybe if you go up to 15 or 20, that probably is usually going to be too much. But I've done that many before, and I literally couldn't walk after.

And that's where if I went into a set of 15, I'm going to pace myself. So I'm not going to really reach my peak power. But if I do in that 6 to 10 range, most research is around that 7 to 8 reps where I'm going to hit my peak maybe around that fifth, sixth, seventh rep, and then it's going to be drop-off from there.

But I can extend that set, and then the flywheel responds to me where as I weaken, as I maybe exhaust, I'm still continue to able to extend that set and get something out of it. It's not like I can get it or I can't sort of thing. So if you think about it from a weight standpoint, when you start a set of maybe 6 to 8 reps of a squat, you might be able to do 400 lbs concentrically, but then as you fatigue, that might be 350, 300, 250, that sort of thing. And so literally that's not possible with weights.

But with a flywheel, and especially just such a small footprint where it's maybe a 2 ft by 3 ft block, so much opportunity with that device to really be efficient with your training time where you only need maybe two sets of that. So that's where I think in season it's a get in and get out on those big rock exercises, and it provides that stimulus that isn't as stressful both mentally and physically, where I have to come in, I have to warm up, I have to build up to whatever, it's 75, 80% for today.

All that just kind of can get hard and too heavy on the body and kind of psychologically draining for some that are a little beat up.

So I think it has opportunity and has a place all the time. Do I use it all the time? No. But like I said, it just takes the right situation of an individual or group.

James de Lacey31:49

I like to almost think of it as, or explain it as, because every rep is maximal, the only reps that are maximal if you're doing a say you're doing an 8 RM squat with 400 lbs is the last rep or maybe the last two reps, because that's where you're going to fail, those are the maximum reps. Whereas on the flywheel you're essentially doing that last rep or two reps multiple times because it's always maximal.

So then you're getting this huge stimulus of just crazy force, power output, or whatever you're doing. And obviously as you mentioned, it's just responding to you, so technically it's kind of safer as well in that regard, depending on what you're doing. It's almost like a win-win when you can do it.

Cody Roberts32:15

It's an easy way of doing it. If guys are beat up and think it's an easy way of doing it, there's so much application around not just power and force, but for hypertrophy, just for getting massive. The tension you get from a flywheel, so a good example is a lateral raise, like a dumbbell lateral raise. If I'm going to do a lateral raise, I'm only going to get peak tension when my arms parallel to the floor, right, because the line of gravity. But when my arms by my side, I get no, my side delts get nothing with the dumbbell.

But with the flywheel, because of the way it pulls, you don't have these dead spots in the resistance. So your side delts have to work all the way up, and then they have to work all the way through the concentric back down. So getting tension throughout the entire range of motion. So if you're looking to pack on size, it's like another way of using it without having to lift weights essentially.

And that's where that makes me think again to the pulley system idea, where I think with the kbox you can attack some big multi-joint exercises. But then even on the pulley system, I think that taps into the concentric side so much better and more, where it just slows you down, forces you to use the ground, forces you to kind of sequence things more appropriately.

Versus, for the lateral raise for that instance, where it's like, oh, if I can just kind of generate inertia or momentum with a dumbbell, I'm only doing work at the very little start. And then if I maybe control tempo and stop it at the top, but if you're pushing against that pulley the whole time, you're experiencing more time under tension.

James de Lacey33:57

Have you had, I know a lot of that stuff, anecdotally, and I've experienced it myself, when you even when you first do eccentric overload stuff with the flywheel, you don't get the same muscle soreness. I don't know if you've experienced the same thing with your athletes?

Cody Roberts34:24

I mean, yes and no. I get, anytime you bring it on, it's going to be something new, something different. I think the biggest thing for me in the last year has been starting heavy wheels, kind of really keeps it slow and controlled, and it doesn't make it too much too fast. Because when you experience that speed and you have to put the brakes on at the bottom, that's big time for sure. So yeah, you would expect them to get sore from that for sure.

James de Lacey34:50

So I mean, if anyone's interested in, and obviously this flywheel stuff, I've actually written one on my other website, but I'll link it in the description. I'll link Exxentric as well, you guys can check those out, because the equipment is great. And so much application to combat sports. But I want to come over to the Keiser as well, because I think some athletes might have Keisers in their gyms maybe. So maybe we cover kind of what the Keiser is and what makes it different to a cable machine and then kind of its applications of what you're using it for.

Cody Roberts35:19

That's a space I've dove into this summer. So Keiser works off of pneumatics. So pneumatics are kind of basically what I would say is a level up from hydraulics, where the pneumatics is what they call is a pure resistance. If you've noticed, I've talked about kind of the free weight, free weights, especially on the speed and power side, when you get lighter and faster.

And so the pneumatics allow you to really kind of tap into that where free weights really don't. Because when I get, 5 lbs is 5 lbs only when it's sitting still. If I start moving 5 lbs up, it's no longer 5 lbs, right? I'm taking weight off of it. So when I'm doing Olympic lifts, they're great for rate of force development, but really not tapping into that full power development piece like you can with pneumatics.

Because when I'm using a pneumatic device, I'm pushing against something continuously, and I know it's always that weight, and I'm not generating the inertia that I am with a flywheel or with a squat jump or a snatch or anything like that.

The only effective or stimulatory piece of that snatch pattern is that final little push or that second pull right before it leaves my hip. That's where I'm generating a lot of power. Everything else from that is just I'm creating momentum and inertia in that barbell itself.

So the pneumatics work off of basically, it's a tank, it's air that gets compressed into this basically chamber, and so that's what you're pushing against. The cool thing about the pneumatics is that it also loads on the eccentric side. Whereas if you've ever experienced hydraulics, a hydraulic you would only experience tension or resistance on the concentric side. So the pneumatic actually allows you to, it kind of reloads the air essentially as you maybe push it out, it reloads that air, so you're resisting it on the way back in.

But what research has kind of shown is that, like I said, you're losing out on the speed and kind of the power side of a lot of those lifts. Because when you're doing those jumps or lifts or squats and things like that, they're using that maybe 15 to 45% of your 1 RM.

You're really only working that first maybe like 3 to 5% of that lift, because once you get the bar moving it's a different load and it's a lighter load. And so kind of similar to what I was talking about with the flywheel, where if you continue to push through it and accelerate through it, then like you said it's going to mimic more of a jumping sort of action. So we get into this limb speed sort of thing under a light resistance.

We get into some power development that's truly power development because just the way that the resistance is maximizing the activation of those patterns. And what's really cool about Keiser is they have different resistance curves based on the equipment. So a rack and a pulley system are always going to be a resistance curve just because of the variety of exercises you do.

But two items that we have that are pretty popular is like the Squat Pro and the leg press. Those are both ascending curves, and so similar to again chains and bands where they're accommodating resistance where as you extend that motion or position, the force actually increases on it. So it's actually less at the deeper portion of it and then it increases.

Their other devices like a pulling device, you know you think about how when you row you actually get weaker as you bring your arms into you, and so those are actually going to be like a descending curve where it's going to be heaviest and hardest at full extension and then as you come in, it kind of decreases.

The other one is a leg extension, leg curl, you could even do like bicep curl, like any sort of flexion extension at the elbow or knee. Those actually kind of have more of like a complex curve where it starts like peak force is in the middle and then it decreases a little bit.

So all of these kind of ideas as far as the resistance curve just really tap into maximal muscular activation, and so it just makes that set even more productive, even more stimulatory, hopefully more beneficial for that athlete that's doing it. And it just kind of goes back to that basic of, mechanical tension is a driver of hypertrophy and strength, and the athlete needs to get exposed to that in training.

So I think barbell devices are always going to have their time and place. And so I said that with the pneumatics, like the 15 to 45% is kind of that lighter, faster. When you do that with a barbell, that gets more just, in my mind, that's just more like a skill-specific sort of thing. It's too light and not really effective enough and probably arguably just more time that isn't really beneficial for that athlete.

I think they're going to become a better athlete, but I don't think from a stimulus standpoint it's really exposing them to the stresses that they otherwise could experience with like a pneumatic device.

So with a pneumatic device, if I'm training for power and I want to develop power through my lower body, that's going to be probably arguably like way more efficient. Because it's pretty simple, you put your shoulders in it, you sit down on it, whatever it may be, and you just go as hard and fast as you can.

And again we get into sort of these like simultaneously testing and training devices, and I think that's another opportunity with Keiser where it gives you that objective rep-by-rep feedback of what's your power output. It has your loads, so if you keep load constant, power output changes, velocity is changing.

And even some of the force-velocity tests that you can do, whether it be like a 10 rep or a six rep test, you can really kind of optimize and show like, did I get faster, did I get stronger, did I get more powerful? A favorite one of mine right now is kind of the 10 rep velocity and force relationship, where you basically work like these uber light loads and kind of slowly progressively work up to kind of a maximum load. And it shows you basically what you could potentially do with max velocity with no force associated or no resistance.

So it's kind of just measuring like how fast you could move your limbs, and then all the way to a predicted kind of force max at zero velocity. And so you can kind of play with that slope. So really cool things that you can do like unilateral-wise, looking at right and left. So that's a space that I think, I think it had a space before, but I think it has only improved with their technology that they've used. And yeah, that's a growing area as well.

James de Lacey43:28

Yeah, it's interesting, like interesting how you mentioned it essentially they designed obviously to improve the strength curve of the exercise. Obviously as you mentioned, like for example the squat, as you stand up with the barbell it gets easier because you're in more and more advantageous positions. But obviously with the Keiser it basically keeps the resistance the same throughout, doesn't matter where you are, advantageous or disadvantageous.

I'm wondering why, I guess it's probably equipment reasons, but I'm wondering why it's not, so like just by what you're saying there, getting more tension, you're probably stimulating more muscle growth using these things. I mean, why hasn't it made its way into general fitness where people could use this stuff in a gym and just get jacked, right?

Cody Roberts43:58

Yes, that's a great question. I mean, because the research is there. I mean, it's essentially like in my mind kind of like the bands and chains but without all the setup. And I think similar to the flywheel, it's probably pretty expensive. I honestly don't even know the price tags on some of these things.

And I think that's where they've improved in my time in the field. Is early on you had to have this massive air compressor, and now it's pretty compact where it's maybe a little bigger than a shoebox and it sits there and it can power maybe eight devices. Before you had to have like a massive, kind of almost closet for this compressor.

James de Lacey45:03

A closet with tubes coming out of it and hooking it all up?

Cody Roberts45:03

Yeah, exactly. So I think it's overwhelming for some. I think it does require kind of supervision and instruction where it's not as simple, just like here's a free weight, use it sort of deal. So it gets kind of complex, but at the same time that's where I've heard of more and more, in the Midwest we haven't really had them yet, but I've heard of there's flywheel classes that they have. Have you heard of this?

James de Lacey45:32

I haven't, flywheel classes though?

Cody Roberts45:32

Where people will go in and, it's like a spin bar.

James de Lacey45:59

Yeah, exactly. And I go, but they just use the flywheel, right, right.

Cody Roberts45:59

And so yeah, maybe it's a handful of clients that get to work and you have your instructor that kind of takes you through maybe a circuit or something like that. But yeah, I think you and I are kind of more on the sport performance side, so we're tapped into that. But yeah, it can be super maybe overwhelming, I can't think of the right word right now, but it's just it could be scary, and can be, somebody doesn't want to hurt themselves.

Especially when, one of the hardest things of coaching those flywheels, back to those real quick, is just as much as I tell an athlete it's going to pull you down right away, like just be ready, there's some strategies. There's some strategies that you can, like, okay, I'll give you a little slack. Like when you stand up your RDL, give yourself a little slack, it'll give you a little bit more time.

But more often than not, they either have to see an athlete do it, but like you just see their eyes blow up when it's like, oh wow. Like, I told you, it doesn't stop. Like once you start it, it doesn't stop.

And that's where I think it's like running. It's like once you start going, you're going. Like your limbs are turning over and you got to put your foot on the ground and continue to put force into the ground and accelerate. But yeah man, the pneumatic stuff is super cool. Again, it's just I think it comes down to footprints. I think there are opportunities with the racks and some of the tricks and the tools that you can use with that, but it comes down to space and a footprint.

Where it's like, okay, if I have X amount of dollars and I have this like 5x5 space, am I going to just take it over with one piece of equipment? But in the right time and place, I think they have opportunities that just, we just need more square footage. And that's why racks will always be kind of king, but I think where these technology companies have found ways to...

Hey, how can I be a rack but also have this technology? So for an example, we have a 1080 Quantum here, and truthfully for me it's been too overwhelming and I train way too broad a spectrum. But that's a special piece of equipment that is a Smith machine, it's a training device, a testing tool at the same time that gives some awesome feedback and really can again tap in on the eccentric side. It taps into this isokinetic space that I don't know enough about to really even commit to.

But it's an ongoing experiment. I mean that's all what all training is, is just this guess and check type model. And I think anytime you implement it, back to the periodization piece, it's anytime you implement it just be low invasive to start, start simple, don't dive in with your eyes closed. Go in with a plan and then just slowly build from there.

James de Lacey49:11

Yeah, the 1080 Quantum. So there's actually an Austin based company, I was connected with them previously when I was here and I went down and I did some, because they have an option which is like an eccentric overload but it essentially pulls you at a certain pace, so it's like an isokinetic. So I was holding 40 kilos of force, I wrapped the thing around like a heavy bag, I had the heavy bag like bear hug and I was in a rotation, then I had it pull me 40 kilos and I was resisting this way. Like this stuff.

Then I did it as well with an Iron Neck and I did isokinetic 40 kilo resistance with the thing and the thing's pulling my head forward and I did the same lateral. I was just like, I try, I don't know if it is a smart idea or not for the neck because obviously, right, neck's a little more tender. I'd be doing jiu-jitsu and neck training at the time, ended up being fine. I thought it was going to be completely sore the next day but I was like, yeah, it could be interesting.

Obviously with eccentric training it improves the length tension relationship, maybe if your head's in a certain position you're going to be stronger when it's lengthened. Maybe in terms of rate of force development for if you're a striker, maybe you're able to decelerate, or well, I mean there's a lot of connection now in terms of neck training and concussion which is quite interesting.

So either way it's an interesting concept and the 1080 Quantum is, yeah, expensive, but an absolute beast and not, as you mentioned, not quite suitable for team training but for one-on-one stuff if you're looking to, as you mentioned, test and train into everything else, it's a pretty beast.

Cody Roberts50:50

Yeah, because I think the way that everybody's kind of wired nowadays is that feedback is very motivating, where it's like I think before a lot of stuff was done manually resisted. Neck training and stuff like that, it was all just maybe with a towel with a partner, but now if we can put real numbers to it, and especially even those rotational movements, where it's like if I can be motivated by the numbers or if I can be more prescriptive with the numbers, where I see hey, this is quality, this is quality, this is quality, and okay, hey, we're dropping off in our ability to produce this many newtons, okay, we need to be done.

So it just kind of lends that to that training smarter versus harder mentality. And yeah, I think you can of course go overboard with it, with getting too deep into the weeds on the numbers and stuff, but from a testing device where it's like simultaneously monitoring and training, if you find out what matters and you're able to just hey, let's focus in on that, I mean that goes back to kind of some of the Bondarchuk methods where it's just pick my one exercise, two exercises to focus on and then just track my progress and just keep it the same and keep it simple. And if something's improving then it's improving.

That's why I love the Keiser stuff, where if your power went up you got more powerful, period. And some of those machines that we've maybe gravitated away from in the last decade, we're coming back to because they keep everything consistent. I can get an athlete in on that, I can measure their knee angle and I know I'm comparing apples to apples in this test.

Where squats, deadlifts, stuff like that, when you're testing those, I think all of us maybe gravitate away from testing those because it's dicey, like it just gets, you're putting the athlete, like if I test a thrower in his squat, if he squats 500, if he squats 550, what's it matter? Let's put him in a safe position to do that.

And so I think maybe even that's where isometrics come into play. I've done that with a lot of rowers, it's just basically putting them in that sport specific position, kind of like on a half slide rowing position which is essentially a deadlift, and then how much force can they produce in that position isometrically? And with the bear hug position or any sort of like, this position is important, a key performance position for my sport, let's measure strength there.

James de Lacey53:11

Yeah, I like that. I mean as you mentioned with the squat, the squat is a skill itself as well, and then it's also not a true, I guess, measurement of force because obviously it is a skill in itself. So you're doing 500 pounds or whatever on the squat, but the actual force output of the movement is probably, you can probably do much more if you're not having to coordinate all the segments as well.

But you also mentioned on periodization. So obviously if anyone's interested in periodization, Bondarchuk, I had Marsden Baser on, I think about 10 episodes ago. He trained under Bondarchuk as a hammer thrower and he dives through, runs through all those methods there and stuff that he's learned. But is there a periodization model that you subscribe to for your athletes or anything I guess related to periodization and I guess planning or programming that you found I guess important to the way you do things?

Cody Roberts54:09

Probably the first thing that comes to mind is vertical integration, where just kind of all qualities are threads of qualities are always around. There's going to be maybe a dominant quality here and there that kind of weaves in and out depending on the time of the year, but that's probably the biggest thing for me is just is the vertical integration kind of concept. And then yeah, I mean that's really the only thing that comes to mind. I think there's threads of everything that comes in and out.

James de Lacey54:40

Yeah, I think people get stuck on blocking everything, right? People get stuck on I'm just doing hypertrophy here because they're just going to get big, and then after I do that I'm going to just do strength then get really strong because I got new muscle, and then after that I'm going to take all that strength and just do power then become speed and power based. But obviously once you've done power at week 16, 20, 24, that's 4 to 6 months away from when you did whatever it was previously as well.

Cody Roberts55:36

Yeah, and even to that point, it's like where people sometimes feel like they have to get to a certain level before they can earn the opportunity to do power, where they maybe put this power on pedestal. Where similar with the flywheel, it's like if you can simultaneously learn the skill itself and just keep that around, that's going to only make it more productive when you actually make it the primary target.

It's like okay, if strength is my primary target then maybe aerobic capacity type work, maybe just overall general fitness is my secondary target, but then I'm still going to keep speed and power in there because it's only going to help me maximize my outputs on the strength side if I use it as maybe a warmup. And then when I do prioritize those qualities, they're, it's not a novel stimulus. I already know it, I see it, and I can hit more volume of it.

So it's an opportunity really I think just to, I think about these burners on a oven where it's just, you can only cook best if you really, hey, this is my primary one and these other ones are maybe just simmering. And then okay, let's move my pans around or maybe change my dials a little bit and let's turn this one up a little bit.

And so I think just focusing on those qualities, focusing on those skills, and not making, not creating too much novelty, especially in the space that I work in. I kind of only have that contact with athletes for 9 months out of the year at times. And so just kind of maximizing those windows of opportunity and not, hey, we're going to completely go left side, right side as far as high velocity.

High power stuff or maybe heavy and hard or like you said hypertrophy stuff. But I think it is important to kind of label down your goals and not do all things to the point where it's like, yes, I want all my burners on blast. That's how I train, that's my problem. Yeah, you just want to do it all.

And there's some sports that try to do that. CrossFit would be kind of one where it's just like, yeah, you want to be all things all the time. And so that's where, yeah, you just got to like, that gets back to just like, hey, how do I manage my microcycle? How do I manage my week? Maybe my week doesn't live in a week, maybe it lives in like 10 to 14 days.

And so I think especially with Fighters that maybe want to live in this high conditioning space but also need to get stronger and build muscle, you have to, I definitely work with that on the in the 400, 800 space at times, where it's like if you want to get stronger you have to really prioritize strength for a little period of time. Like I have one kid this summer that he wants to do like his hard Tuesday run, it's more like race modeling like 800 meter type race, running repeats like 400s or 600s, stuff like that, and then he would come in and lift.

I'm like, dude, you got the whole day right now. You need to lift and do speed, power, strength stuff first and then wait at least four hours, if not more, and do your extensive runs in the evening. Because you're trying to serve these two masters and your body doesn't know what to adapt to.

So I think just like periodization modeling, I guess I would just say like this is my window of time, what am I trying to improve? And then again, back to like, how do I know I improved it? What am I testing? And then how did I show if I was effective or not? And so, yeah, find those 8 to 12 week blocks, pick a target, and when I write my program it's what's my primary, secondary, tertiary targets and then build from there and keeping that in check to make sure that primary has to stay primary.

And so when I zoom out and look at the program it's like, yeah, these are the qualities I want to attack and these are the primary things that are going to get me there.

James de Lacey59:55

Yeah, I think one key thing you mentioned there was he should do the strength power stuff first and then run later, because that's his priority. So anyone, if your priority is that kind of on the physical side, maybe you're way out of camp, very far from a fight, maybe you should do that physical training first in the day and then maybe do your technical stuff later in the day.

Obviously it depends on class times, things like that. You're always going to have a thread of technical training in there, but if strength or something is something where you're really lagging behind, that may be something that you need to do as well.

And I really like that you mentioned about the microcycles. We get stuck in these 7-day microcycles. I even get stuck in the 7-day microcycles because it's easy, right? It's easy to go Monday to Sunday, I know exactly what's what. I need to train all these qualities or these exercises within the 7-day training week. But sometimes, for example, sports like MMA, where you've got Jiu-Jitsu, wrestling, grappling against the fence, and then you've got striking, then you've got maybe some kind of MMA specific striking, whatever it is, sparring on top of that, your week so full that trying to fit everything you want to do into a 7-day microcycle might not be possible.

So do you want to maybe touch on how you would plan like maybe a 10 or 14 day microcycle? How different does that look than just a normal week structure?

Cody Roberts1:01:08

Yeah, so I think it goes back to your primary. So like, hey, let's, what are my primary days? And then setting up those primary days. So by setting them up, you just got to make kind of, because I lend maybe another periodization model would be kind of this high-low approach where you label stuff as, okay, this is high intensity, this is low intensity, and maybe avoiding some of that moderate intensity stuff. Because that moderate intensity isn't high enough quality that is really stimulatory, and it's also too fatiguing to recover from.

So let's identify my high intensity days, and then let's appreciate how much time I need in order to recover after that day. Say it's, hey, I need, I can go high on Tuesday and Friday and then Monday and Thursday, sort of thing, across maybe a two week span. And then, okay, let's pick my off days. And this is where you just get to real life, where it's like, okay, I know I have a busy day Sunday, or I know I have a, so that works out well to have Sunday be an off day, and then I come in and do a high intensity day Monday, or so arranging it kind of based on your schedule too, and not trying to make your schedule fit your training plan.

So appreciate reality, and then like when you do low intensity sessions, yeah, they can still be long, but let's just maybe allow yourself a bit longer rest or don't make it so aggressive that you can't recover from. Because a low intensity session you should be able to recover from within 24 to 48 hours. And so just maybe appreciating just what is high intensity, what is low intensity. We can look at maybe different lifts, we can look at different maybe tasks and activities.

And if we double up and if we go two high days, we have to appreciate kind of the recovery we need on the back end. So it might be like two high days and then like three low days and maybe an off day spread in there as well. So just kind of identify those high intensity days and then appreciate low intensity days.

A lot of stuff can still happen, but we just need to maybe watch the velocities, we need to watch the neuromuscular intensity of what we're kind of asking of the body. And obviously we need to look at tissue recovery. That's probably kind of a basic thing, where it's just like, what are you benefiting from training a muscle that's sore, that sort of deal.

But then, yeah, there's all kinds of monitoring techniques, whether it be HRV. I've dipped into Omega Wave, DC potential stuff I think has a lot of value. But even with force plates, we see the same thing where RSI, your reactive strength index, when we see that change, or we see eccentric duration change, we can maybe start to hint that fatigue is present and just the brain isn't that sharp.

And so I think, yeah, that just gets back to the bedrock of, if your brain's not online to train and you're asking it to do sprint-like kind of rate of force development stuff, higher velocity activities, it's not going to be able to adapt. Strength, hypertrophy, that honestly a lot of times can be considered low intensity activity, and that's why bodybuilders can train six to seven days a week, is because they're arguably not really taxing. And obviously it depends on how they train. But at the same time, if you're training just kind of body part splits, that's seemingly pretty low intensive from a neuromuscular standpoint.

James de Lacey1:04:57

Yeah, typical push, pull, legs, six days a week, and then you're getting rest between the two days between the push days, pull days, leg days and stuff like that. So obviously, yeah, you can do that with pretty much no issue when you train an hour a day and just one muscle.

Cody Roberts1:04:57

Obviously, as athletes, that's a different beast. When you get into athletics, you've got skill, tactics, techniques, and that sort of deal that it really dominates the sport. All of the stuff that we live and breathe, we continue to obviously bias from a performance standpoint, but the best athlete is the athlete that's going to be technically and tactically sound. So those have to have a lot of time and effort. And yeah, especially with Fighters, that stuff, that stuff's not won or lost in the weight room as much as it is kind of within those different disciplines you talked about.

James de Lacey1:05:52

Yeah, for sure. If anyone wants to read more on the high-low stuff, I've talked about this quite a bit on the podcast. You can just search how to schedule your MMA training, and I've got a whole bunch of other articles that kind of cover that high-low model as well.

But we've gone over an hour here and I really appreciate your time, Cody. Do you want to maybe let anyone know where and how they can follow what you're doing? And yeah, I guess anything else that you felt like we missed on the podcast?

Cody Roberts1:06:16

Yeah, so I have continue to try to be more engaged on the Instagram side. I just haven't...

I haven't yet, but if you want to engage with me there, that would be the place. I honestly don't even—I think Coach Roberts, Coach_Roberts, is my handle there. I literally don't have any posts, but I'll share some stuff that I'm involved with on the Science for Sport side. I help out with this golf training consulting group, Next Gear Golf, and occasionally in season I'll obviously share what's happening with Iowa Track and Field, with Iowa Rowing, and all things that are going on here.

So that'd be probably the best place to engage with me if that's interesting to you. But outside of that, I mean, I just greatly appreciate you bringing me on. I think what's great about us and the group that we're connected through is just the evidence-based space, and just research has been awesome, man.

It's been fun to continue to see what continues to come out every month as we sit here and wait for the next month's reviews to come up. It's always an exciting time for me. I write for that Tech and Monitoring section, but I always follow what you're writing and what you're digging into, and it's just cool just to see what coaches are continuing, I think, to get into that research space.

So I encourage everybody to just continue to do a search on Google Scholar, because the stuff's out there. The information, the ideas, the direction that can really help—but at the same time, like I said earlier, it's an ongoing experiment. So try it, test it, get feedback for it. That'd probably be the big stuff.

James de Lacey1:08:43

And if you're not a fan of going and searching Google Scholar and reading it, you can go to SweetScienceOfFighting.com, because I sum it all up for combat athletes and make sure you listen to this podcast, because I bring on all those researchers on to here as well to chat about all their combat sports research and guys like Cody as well, who aren't even in the combat sports space but obviously have a lot to offer.

Because the principles of training for sport, as I've mentioned on this podcast before, transcend the sport. It doesn't matter what sport it is, the principles remain the same, as Cody mentioned, regarding high-low, various high-low periodization structures, isokinetic, flywheels, Keiser, all that stuff.

And he's using it for rowers, throwers, track and field guys, obviously all that stuff also translates over to combat athletes. So plenty to learn from everyone. Keep listening, because I'm going to—I've got more researchers and stuff coming on as well, more stuff on the site. And if you're interested in the flywheels, check the description for that Exxentric Flywheel, and I'm going to link up Cody's Instagram as well. So that'll be down, you can follow Cody, show him some love, give him a follow, blow up his Instagram a bit. And yeah, I appreciate you coming on.

Cody Roberts1:09:32

Well, thank you so much. This is an awesome opportunity, James. I'm so appreciative of people like you that are producing the content—like you said, just doing the work and presenting it in a digestible format. So awesome conversation today. Really appreciate connecting with you and all you do for our space.