Don't Skip The Olympic Lifts + Eccentric Overload For Max Power w/ Tim Suchomel (SSOF Ep 107)

Tim Suchomel2:31

Sure. So if we're talking about different start positions, we have mechanical advantages, disadvantages, based on the position that we're in. So the fact of the matter is if we have a shorter displacement of the barbell, we can use more load.

So if I'm talking about performing a mid-thigh pull or a countermovement shrug where the displacement is really small, we have research and even a hang pull, we have research that you can use upwards to at least 140% of your catching vary 1RM.

And the fact of the matter is, more load, more force potential when it comes to what we can use in our training. So the rationale behind it is that if we can emphasize force to a greater extent using a pulling variation that has a smaller displacement and obviously use more load, then we can get those better strength adaptations or force production adaptations as kind of our ceiling of force.

But on the opposite side of things, we can also perform pulling variations that use really light loads. So if I talk about a catching variation, generally speaking most people aren't going to load those any less than probably 60% of their 1RM just because bar path becomes a little bit awkward. We're kind of just pulling the bar up, minimal effort with the actual push and everything.

However, with lighter pulling variations like the jump shrug and the hang high pull, we can still use maximal effort. With a jump shrug, you are actually trying to jump as high as possible off the ground, which is different from a lot of the other weightlifting movements. But a high pull, we're obviously trying to elevate the barbell to chest height, but we can use a really light load to do it, really emphasizing the triple extension movement.

So maximal power output of those movements are going to be loads of somewhere between 30 and 45% versus not necessarily getting maximal effort when we're using a catching variation at those same loads.

James de Lacey4:40

Are you always trying to use loads that maximize power output during these weightlifting derivatives, or you just loading based on maybe just percentage of 1RM or by feel or how it looks or speed?

Tim Suchomel5:01

Yeah, that's a good question. What I see is we're chasing what the goal is. So I'm going to load based on what the goal is. So if we're trying to emphasize more of a strength speed, as in heavier loads trying to move those quickly, I'm obviously going to push the percentages a little bit higher, but there are certain exercise and load combinations that I won't use during those types of phases.

So if it's a strength speed phase, obviously my exercises like a hang pull or a countermovement shrug, those are going to be our primary emphasis where we can use heavier loads moved quickly, versus if I'm in a speed strength phase, I may still incorporate some of those force dominant movements. We'll just load them lighter so we can still maintain that high force output, but we're just moving the loads faster while also incorporating other derivatives such as jump shrug, high pull.

But obviously when we get to something like a speed strength oriented, then I'm going to target those peak power output loads a little bit more, but also stay on the lighter side of things depending on the exercise.

James de Lacey6:15

How much of your—I mean this is obviously a very "it depends" question—but how much of your program would typically make up with weightlifting derivatives? Since obviously your background, your research, is heavily into this, does that play a lot of bias into maybe how much fits in your program?

Tim Suchomel6:28

Yeah, I mean admittedly there is some bias that I like to think of very much a practicum when it comes to the research and being able to apply it, because when I was still doing more coaching than I am now, I was working with our volleyball team here at Carroll. And when we finished that study, we started modifying things in their program kind of based on the results that we were seeing.

So an example would be we may be in a higher volume phase of training where the standard sets and reps are something like three sets of 10 for all of our core lifts, but I'd still incorporate some pulling variations just to start to develop that movement pattern a little bit more. We'd be using something like a clean pull from the floor, but we wouldn't be doing 10 reps of it. We would be doing maybe four sets of five reps at lighter loads just to one, ingrain the movement pattern, but two, they can start to load that movement up a little bit.

Which was modified from the study that we did where we did three sets of 10 clustered, so they were doing more like three by two by five, if that makes sense. So they were doing five reps, rest, five reps. So we also weren't using the same loads that we had the potential to, because these were also, I'll call them more novices when it comes to the movements that we were teaching them at the time.

So it did bias some of the results—or sorry, some of the programming—because the volleyball team, when it came to catching variations, I didn't personally think that they were ready for them. There were probably one or two that down the line if we wanted to incorporate those movements, we certainly could, but we didn't have to.

So I'll be the first person to admit that there were probably five years or so that I was working with them, they didn't turn over the bar once. It's not to say that they weren't getting stronger in that position because we were still doing some front squats and things like that. But we still had them kind of accept the load when it came down after the pull.

So a clean pull, they didn't just drop the bar, they accepted it mid-thigh, brought it back down, and then we did another one. So it did bias some programming a little bit, but I would also make the argument that if I'm doing jump shrugs, those are going to be directly applicable to my volleyball players versus if I was doing a hang clean at similar loads.

So I try to keep it simple for them because I make the argument that all pulling variations are kind of a bridge to catching variations if you want to later on. So even if I was teaching someone to turn over the bar while using pulling variations as the primary training stimulus, I know I can do that because, again, bridges the gap to someone turning over the bar if they wanted to.

James de Lacey9:39

Do you think athletes are missing anything if they don't ever end up, say, catching the bar, say in a power clean or power snatch, and end up just doing pulling and high pull variations?

Tim Suchomel9:39

Yeah, I—how much time do you have? I mean, really, I mean this will be an age-old debate back and forth. I mean, let's put it this way: if the only reason you're incorporating catching—this is just my opinion—if the only reason you're performing catching variations is to get that eccentric benefit, I would say that we're slightly missing the boat when it comes to the stimulus that we're actually trying to provide.

Both weightlifting pulling and catching variations have an eccentric component to them. However, there's also eccentric components, as we'll talk about later on, with AEL, with tempo, with flywheel. So we're not necessarily training the eccentric emphasis of it, but to say can you get eccentric benefit with catches? Yes. Can you get eccentric benefit from doing pulls? Yes. To what extent? It depends on the exercise, it depends on the load.

I'd also make the argument that when it comes to catching, the better you get at it, the less stimulus you may actually get, especially if you're performing power variations where the displacement of the bar gets smaller and smaller at the top, so it's not crashing on you anymore.

The other thing is that if we're talking about vertical loading when it comes to that eccentric benefit, every time we re-rack a push press or a jerk or something like that, you're getting eccentric benefit because the bar is actually traveling a farther distance when you re-rack it anyway.

So the long answer that I'm giving you right now is you can do both. Do you have to perform catches all the time? No, that's my opinion. But at the same exact time, there's probably benefits to learning the skill later on if you want to and to provide a novel training stimulus to somebody.

And if you've already been doing all of these pulling variations leading into it, you'd certainly be able to, in my opinion, learn those exercises a little bit better than not performing some of the pulls prior to. So I usually tell people if the pull sucks, everything else is going to suck too, because the bar won't necessarily—

James de Lacey11:53

Yeah, that's fair enough. And there's obviously, as you mentioned, the technical component. Once you get really good at any Olympic weightlifting movement, the bar's not—well, the bar ideally isn't crashing down on you anyway. You're meeting the bar at the top, so you kind of lessen a little bit of that stimulus.

But I'm going to throw another, I guess, age-old, I guess you could say, argument to you as well. I'd love to know your opinion or experience on it. Basically saying Olympic weightlifting or weightlifting derivatives versus jumping. And I think most sane people obviously use both. But obviously people are always talking about either/or, or does one transfer to the other?

I'll just maybe just throw that to you with your opinion or experiences. Do Olympic weightlifting derivatives going to help someone jump higher or improve lower body power production, etc.?

Tim Suchomel12:56

Yeah, so again, that's a great question and I have gotten it multiple times. I remember presenting at the NSCA National Conference a while back and someone posed the question, how does a jump shrug compare to a hex bar jump? And at the time I didn't have an answer. But what that did is it spurred a research project where we were looking at jump shrugs versus jump squats and hex bar jumps.

And the results that we ended up finding when we used standardized loads across everybody was that a jump shrug was more forceful at the exact same loads compared to a hex bar. But a hex bar and a jump squat were higher velocity movements compared to the jump shrug. So the take-home message behind it is there's a spectrum of exercises that you can use.

I'm using the jump shrug as an example because it's a ballistic pulling derivative compared to a lot of the other movements. I would make the argument that it's probably one of, if not the fastest, weightlifting derivative that we have. But if I'm performing a jump shrug and I'm hitting 2.5, 2.6 m/s, but with my hex bar jump I'm closer to 3 m/s, there's a time and a place for both exercises.

What we have to understand is that each type of exercise has a benefit. With a hex bar, you stand completely vertical. With a jump shrug, you have a hip hinge movement. So the movement is slightly different and it's going to give us a slightly different benefit. That being said, they both train the same thing. We're training the extension, or the explosive extension, of the hip, knee, and ankle. So both exercises have their place.

However, what we have to consider also is how we load it. A hex bar, for example, because the load is distributed around us and we are within that center of mass, we can load that exercise heavier than probably something like a jump shrug safely, because when we get into that hip hinge movement, we're obviously at a mechanical disadvantage when we get down to the knee. So it's more difficult to effectively jump the same way that we would with lighter loads.

So I guess the combination that you may use is you can use heavier loads with a hex bar jump, but you can still provide a really good benefit to someone with lighter loads with a jump shrug from a force standpoint.

James de Lacey15:31

Nice. We've talked a lot as well with derivatives. A lot of it is based around jump shrug, maybe hang variations, a lot of clean variations. Do snatch or do snatch variations play much of a role within your program, or is it mainly around the clean derivative variations?

Tim Suchomel15:45

For our programming, it's primarily around clean variations. It's not to say that we wouldn't be able to incorporate some snatch variations. The reality is a lot of the loading that currently exists within the research is based on clean one rep maxes or catch variation one rep maxes, whether it be a power clean or a hang power clean.

Not as many people have done snatch research, primarily because less people that aren't competitive weightlifters snatch. And again, that has certainly changed with more people competing in CrossFit and things like that. It's not to say that snatches can't be done.

In fact, I was on a thesis committee of Garrett Fenster, who was at App State. And what he did is he essentially did my thesis project with snatch variations and he found very similar results, where the jump shrug with a snatch grip and a hang high pull produced high, similar, or higher velocities compared to a hang power snatch across a spectrum of loads.

Now, we know that snatches are generally faster than cleans. Part of that, and a lot of that, has to do with having to displace the bar to a higher position. Also the general movement itself, there's a larger displacement that has to happen with the body in general.

So the reality is there's less research on it from my standpoint. I know what is currently out there with all the clean and the snatch research. But when it comes to incorporating it as a practitioner, I'd certainly err on the side of clean variations because more people in my experience have more knowledge of performing clean variations versus snatch variations.

James de Lacey17:50

Yeah. For someone listening to this who's maybe intrigued about maybe adding some of these movements to their program, what would be maybe a handful or a few exercises you think they should learn first to get a handle on that are maybe the easiest for them to grasp?

Tim Suchomel18:06

Yeah, that's a good question. The teaching progression that we generally use also follows very similarly with USAW. And I teach people generally, I guess you could call this a top-down approach or mid-down approach, but I usually start at the mid-thigh power position. So slightly bent knees and we still have our upright torso. So in that power position, I teach people how to pull the bar or perform a triple extension from that position first, which is essentially a mid-thigh pull.

So mid-thigh pull, I can make the argument, is probably the easiest pulling or catching derivative that you can teach somebody. So becoming familiar with that power position is your foundation. After that, we'll add a countermovement to it, whether it be a vertical, as in a countermovement shrug, where you start fully standing, dip to the power position, and then extend.

And then we start to perform variations from the knee—start static at the knee, perform the transition to the mid-thigh, and then extend—and then a hang variation, a hang pull, where you go down-up, one movement, like you would a hang power clean or something like that.

And then from there you have a lot of options. So if you can master those types of movement, that's going to lay a foundation for doing a hang high pull or doing a jump shrug from the hang position, or if you even wanted to work down to the floor and do pulls from the floor.

Now, if you're moving to catching variations, obviously doing a mid-thigh pull, a hang high pull, that lays your foundation from doing either a hang power clean or a mid-thigh power clean. So that's the teaching progression that we use. We start at the mid-thigh, work down to the knees so they can get used to that transition, and then depending on their competency, we'll either stay up high or we'll move down to the floor.

But part of that is also based on what are our goals at the time. The reality is if somebody can already perform a stiff-leg deadlift or an RDL, they should be able to find the position, which is the end of the first pull, pulling it to the knee. If they've been doing that before, learning things from the floor shouldn't be that difficult, especially if you're teaching them how to transition from the knee.

James de Lacey20:36

Nice. Do you find that there's any, I guess, use for the program for say the full lift—say the clean, the snatch, or even just the clean and jerk—over doing something like the power variations or other derivatives?

Because I'm assuming that if you're doing the full lift, okay, you are front squatting within your program, doing other squats. Is there any need to really do the full lift and add complexity to it?

Tim Suchomel20:59

I suppose it just depends on what your goals are. Obviously, the full lifts are going to be more physiologically demanding compared to derivatives of those movements.

So, if we just talk about a clean, obviously performing first pull, transition, second pull, riding the bar down, coming up in a full squat, and if you're going to add the jerk to it, now you're kind of complexing these movements together and what is being performed in a traditional weightlifting competition.

There is a place for it, but you also have to think about the fatigue, the loading that you're going to be using from that, and what your goals actually are. So, if my goal is to kind of stress the nervous system a little more in terms of I'm going to have you perform this full movement, perform the front squat with it, and then possibly do the jerk afterwards, it's very strenuous, and it's hard to do a lot of repetitions with it well.

I mean, individuals who are performing these are power cleans, but you could see technique start to break down after three, four reps. So, the number of repetitions that you're able—

James de Lacey22:11

Yeah, for sure. I'm going to throw the oldest debate in the world to you right now. Olympic lifts versus no Olympic lifts. Let me just frame it in a way where people often say, "Okay, you don't need to do Olympic lifts. They can take time to learn, etc. You can get the same results doing no Olympic lifts." In your experience, do you think you can potentially get better results using the weightlifting derivatives over not using them?

Tim Suchomel22:45

I do, but I'm also going to play the politician here and say, "Why does it have to be one or the other?" Because I mean, the reality is and this is kind of what I tell my students as well is that with our core movements, our squats, presses, pulls, we can generally move heavier loads than we can with weightlifting movements.

However, weightlifting movements are faster, but our core movements set us up to perform those other ones well. Loaded jumps are faster than or some loaded jumps are faster than weightlifting derivatives. Unloaded jumps are faster than loaded jumps. Sprinting is faster than plyometrics. So, there's a spectrum that we should all be working towards.

So, it's just a matter of going into your coaching toolbox and kind of choosing I need this to get this adaptation that I want, maybe this is another tool I can use. So, if I again, if I'm moving into something like a speed strength, okay, I may use a jump shrug, but knowing that something like a hex bar jump is faster, maybe I program that at the end of the week to make that faster at the end of the week.

So, it's going to be a combination of both for me. I generally program a combination of jumps and core movements, weightlifting derivatives, and obviously with a more advanced athlete, then you can obviously get into things like AEL potentiation complexes, that type of thing, but the bare-bones basics in terms of core movements, loaded jumps, you can accomplish a lot with those things.

I do, however, think that incorporating weightlifting derivatives can give you a unique training stimulus because you're moving generally speaking, moderate to heavy loads very quickly.

James de Lacey24:43

Yeah, that's why I always mention them and preach them for grapplers and MMA athletes. You're having to manipulate other heavy human beings. Why not develop some of those skills in the gym, too?

And I just wanted to touch a little bit on that cuz you've talked about your philosophy around you're covering essentially the spectrum. Speed strength, strength speed, different velocities. There's obviously also a train of thought around not avoiding but spending less time in that middle zone of optimizing power during movements because hey, if we're optimizing power, we're probably submaximal force, submaximal velocity. So, some coaches would rather try and be on either end. Do you maybe just dive into a little bit of your philosophy around that? Maybe why hitting those middle areas like you mentioned before might be still very beneficial for athletes.

Tim Suchomel25:29

Yeah, I mean, I tell people the age-old phrase is surf the curve. So, we're talking about the force velocity curve, obviously. I tell my students and I tell people I talk to about this, you have to invest in power.

Obviously, we can emphasize force or velocity to a greater extent if we're on one side or the other, but you should still be incorporating both throughout to continue to build all aspects of the curve. So, if we're going to be in something like a general strength or absolute strength phase, we're trying to raise our force ceiling.

Obviously, we're going to have an emphasis on those really heavy loads and force components, but that doesn't mean I'm not still incorporating lighter loads relatively speaking that would fall within the middle of the loading spectrum, if you will. And so, it's a in this case, we're talking about heavy sets and drop sets, warm-up sets, obviously that are going to incorporate that velocity component that we may not necessarily have with our working sets.

Heavier exercises, lighter exercises, but also even more general than that, we can plan this out from a phase standpoint. If we do something like a strength endurance phase, then a strength phase, then a strength power phase, the age-old progression of phases, we're hitting different aspects of that curve.

And if we get down to the bare bones of it in terms of programming obviously exercise choices and exercise load combinations are going to be a big driver of the adaptations that we get. But yes, it's still important to work the middle aspect of it. You can just do it in a variety of ways. But investing in it over the course of the long term is really going to allow us to develop—

James de Lacey27:35

Perfect. I think it's a good transition as well cuz you've mentioned accentuated eccentric loading AEL a few times as well and various eccentric so we'll go that way. But let's start for the listener, eccentric training, what the hell is it?

Tim Suchomel27:35

I love it. Eccentric training is essentially an emphasis on the eccentric phase of a movement. So generally speaking we have our eccentric, isometric and concentric aspects of a movement often performed in a stretch shortening cycle function.

Eccentric training is going to be manipulation of the load, of the tempo, of some aspect of the eccentric phase whether we are lengthening it, adding more load to it, or placing a greater emphasis on the eccentric aspect of the movement. So there's a variety of ways that we can do that. We can change the speed, the load, the tempo of it and everything. In a nutshell that's what eccentric training is.

James de Lacey28:38

And for anyone listening, eccentric just like lowering phase or descent essentially is the easiest way of doing it, like going down in a squat. I think what would be a good place to start on eccentric training. I'd love to just cover kind of refresh my own knowledge as well around the adaptations that we're looking to achieve through eccentric training and maybe we can—I guess we could potentially throw tempo in there, but I mean we could say tempo training isn't pure eccentric training, but maybe we'll keep it to eccentric overload. What are we trying to achieve by doing this?

Tim Suchomel29:16

Yeah, so I guess that the eccentric overload idea is generally thought of as the ratio between what is being performed eccentrically versus concentrically or what outputs you're getting from it. So, for example, if I produce higher forces eccentrically compared to a concentric movement, you would make the argument that you have higher an eccentric overload.

Now, if I'm talking about AEL where we have heavier loads on the eccentric phase, I can accentuate that just a little bit more or place a greater emphasis on that and provide a greater ratio of eccentric forces compared to my concentric forces. So, that's kind of where the AEL falls in.

Now, the speed at which I perform an eccentric phase also can place an additional overload on an individual. So, if I have to break faster, I can get a peaked kind of shape of my impulse or my force, so higher rate of force development compared to what I would normally get with a traditional movement like a squat.

So, I'll use a flywheel as an example. If I push really hard in my flywheel and I stop it in something like a quarter squat, I'm going to see a really peaked eccentric phase cuz I had to stop myself in a shorter range of motion with a high velocity emphasis.

And the unique thing about eccentrics is that the higher the velocities, the higher the forces, which is in contrast to concentric, which is higher velocities, lower forces versus lower velocities.

James de Lacey30:51

Yeah, I love that. I actually completely forgot about that idea around the high velocity, high forces. In terms of adaptations through fast and slow eccentrics, are you able to dive into a little bit about maybe what happens muscle architecture-wise, muscle fiber type, etc.?

Tim Suchomel31:12

Yeah, so one of the benefits that we have eccentrically is we can handle or tolerate heavier loads compared to something like our traditional movement.

So, say for example in a squat, the heaviest load that you can use is your 1RM because you're going to go down, you're going to come back up, hopefully. But when it comes to the eccentric side of things, I could get you to lower 105, 110, 115, 120% at a slower pace where you are still actively resisting that movement.

But, because you still perform that movement, we can use a heavier load. Now, one of the things that that does is it may allow us to target higher threshold motor units such as those type two fast-twitch fibers compared to a traditional movement.

It's not to say that a traditional movement that is 85, 90% 1RM isn't going to touch those, but the reality is because I can use much, much heavier loads, I might be able to stimulate even higher ones that I may not have touched previously.

And the same thing kind of goes with the speed component of it is if I'm going to perform a countermovement jump, for example, if I go down really quickly, I'm going to see a peaked force output that I may get.

However, if I'm going to perform what I would term an accelerated eccentric where I'm holding on the bands and they're going to actively pull me down into that, it's going to move me faster than just my traditional countermovement. So, higher velocities, higher forces, assuming that we stop ourselves and slow ourselves down.

I do want to just mention that is whether we're performing tempo, flywheel, AEL, accelerated eccentrics, if we are not actively resisting that eccentric movement, we're not actually going to get those adaptations. So, with tempo, for example, obviously we're slowing the movement down and we are actively resisting that movement, but at the same exact time, higher velocities, higher forces, so as long as we are controlling the movement, we're still going to get those adaptations.

So, now, kind of switching back to kind of the underpinning side of things is because we are able to stimulate those type two motor units a little bit more and those fast twitch fibers, we can also start to stimulate adaptations in terms of rapid force production or rate coding of those motor units, so firing frequency.

That allows us then to be able to produce force faster eccentrically and also with those type two motor units, raise our force ceiling a little bit more as well. So, we're not only producing more force, but we're producing it faster, which is obviously going to benefit us as we transition to the concentric side of things as well.

If we're able to hold on to higher eccentric forces, you will be able to use higher forces in the concentric side of things when you do our traditional stretch-shortening cycle movements. Now, from a muscle architectural standpoint, what we're also stimulating a little bit is adaptations in things like titin, which will increase the rigidity of the actual sarcomeres down at that level.

So, in terms of where our force production's actually occurring, if we are able to create slightly more rigid structure able to transmit force better through the muscle to the tendon to the bone, allowing us to increase our stiffness. Now, stiffness is not inflexibility, where we're not being flexible. Stiffness is a characteristic force.

James de Lacey35:25

Perfect. And if I remember correctly, maybe an increase in pennation angle, too, to help with those breaking forces and basically I'm going to say it wrong, reversing those eccentric forces into concentric essentially, or being able to do—

Tim Suchomel35:25

Yeah, so if we are using eccentric training as an emphasis, we may be able to decrease the pennation angle, which will allow us to increase muscle fiber.

James de Lacey35:53

Perfect. And then you obviously mentioned around the tension as well, having to have that tension or resistance on the way down. Regarding say drop catch, eccentric style training then, I'm assuming where does that fit in there? Because I'm assuming there's no tension until you catch that position at the bottom?

Tim Suchomel36:10

Yeah, so a drop catch, if we use something like a hex bar drop catch, where we actively just drop into it and then stop it, because we are still stopping it, it's kind of like if we were dropping off a box.

If we step off a box, gravity's going to take care of us coming down, but we have to be able to stop ourselves. The same thing with a drop catch. What we are doing is we're creating a very short time in which we have to produce a lot of force.

So, we are actively resisting it in that way. A drop catch is a unique one. An accelerated eccentric is a unique one. Stepping off of boxes, which is why I say plyometrics to a certain extent are going to give us a certain eccentric training stimulus.

But yeah, I mean you're still actively resisting it. Now, a drop catch where someone drops down and they don't stop themselves, they just kind of go all the way down, then we're not accomplishing anything because they hadn't stopped themselves.

Obviously if you're going to do a drop and catch with a bench press, just make sure that it does actually stop so you don't crush your sternum. But in terms of that aspect, what I was primarily referring to is if we're performing something like a squat.

And if we go down and we just free fall into the bottom and we have weight releasers on, we are not actively resisting the weight releasers. We are free falling to the bottom so that they fall off and then we would just bounce out of there. We would see kind of a peak eccentric, but we wouldn't necessarily get the adaptations because—

James de Lacey37:47

Perfect. You mentioned one of the examples of eccentric training at the beginning around essentially like a loaded jump where you're loading the eccentric, letting go of the dumbbells, then say jumping on a box. I think probably a lot of listeners probably seen that on Instagram as well around. Do you maybe just dive into maybe what someone's trying to achieve while doing something like that?

Tim Suchomel38:03

Yeah, so it's called— So, AEL, accentuated eccentric loading, kind of falls on a spectrum. We have supermaximal, we have maximal, we have submaximal, but you could also say that we have non-ballistic and ballistic variations of that as well.

So, an AEL dumbbell jump is where you're going to be holding onto the dumbbells, you're going to lower yourself down to down to the bottom near the bottom position of your countermovement, drop the dumbbells, and without pausing, jump as high as possible.

So, there's research Jeremy Sheppard was kind of the seminal research on this, but what they showed is that with volleyball players, you can increase the amount of force that you can get, you can increase their jump height longitudinally. And the idea behind it is you are trying to add additional load on the countermovement to be able to produce higher forces that will then transfer over to the concentric side of things.

So, for the listeners that know what our potentiation complex is, where you're trying to you do one exercise and then you perform another exercise separately, AEL is within-set potentiation. So, you are using what you're performing in that movement to benefit something else in that movement.

And it happens very quickly. So, ideally, someone performs a countermovement drop at the very bottom, and then they're able to jump straight out of there. Now, that being said, you still have to resist that movement, and what we've generally found is people will perform their countermovements probably a little bit slower than what they would normally perform because they have heavier loads.

Currently, we're investigating percentages of body weight and percentages of their back squat max. So, 10, 20, 30% body weight, 10, 20, 30% of their back squat. And as you can imagine, people can squat more than their body weight, so heavier loads start to start to add up a little bit, but we kind of find a break point where with some people that one load just becomes too heavy for them and they just don't move as efficiently.

But yeah, that in a nutshell is kind of your AEL jump. And you can accomplish this doing different things as well. I've seen people use chains before, which is a little bit different if you let them gather because it's not an instant like it's gone.

James de Lacey40:51

I was going to ask you mentioned within set potentiation as well. I don't know I haven't read the research in a long time, but I think there still there was at least mixed results around within set potentiation for accentuated eccentric loading say 110% 1RM and then the concentric the following concentric performance at say 60 or 70% 1RM. Is that still the case? Am I way off there?

Tim Suchomel41:12

Right now, it kind of depends on the on the exercise itself. So we just published a paper that was looking at— We looked at either 100% on the way down for squats or 110% on the way down with different loads on the way up.

So 50, 60, 70, 80% of their 1RM squat. And we did this compared to just traditional squats. Now what we ended up finding was that there was no difference between each condition from the concentric side of things. So all the force outputs, the velocity outputs were all the same concentrically.

That doesn't mean that it wasn't beneficial because what we ended up seeing eccentrically, as you would imagine, heavier loads, more forces created faster. Now what we come down to is the we may get some mixed results depending on the people that we have, but also we also grouped the repetitions together as a mean performance.

So, they performed the first repetition of a set of three with the hooks on. So, that went down with 100 or 110% and let's say they came up with 70% of their 1RM. They performed the first repetition with the hook on the way down and then reps two and three were just normal squats with 70% on the bar.

So one of the things that we're going to be looking and I know John Weagle has looked at some of this in his research is a rep by rep comparison to see what benefits there may be carrying over from one repetition to another.

But the other thing that we have to consider is I would make the argument that AEL is very much an advanced training strategy that some people use. So we're going to be looking at comparisons between those who can squat double body weight versus those that can't. And we should be able to see if there are some strength differences there in terms of the adaptation. And subjectively, we looked at some of the relationships between what is the relative strength and what is being produced eccentrically.

And what we ended up finding is that there is, I'm not going to say it's not a perfect correlation, but there's like a 0.8 correlation between what is being produced eccentrically and someone's relative strength. That shouldn't be that surprising, but at the same exact time we'll see what we end up getting in terms of...

James de Lacey43:38

There's actually a paper just published last month by Sangwan Chung and a bunch of colleagues on that combined accentuated eccentric loading and rest redistribution. So they did the one essentially, they compared eccentric down, concentric up, rest, and then put the weight releases back on. So every eccentric was with the weight releases. And they compared that to a couple of other protocols as well.

That was an interesting paper as well if anyone listening if they want to check that out.

Tim Suchomel44:21

I know if any of the listeners have done this, when you add those hooks back on, if it's any significant load, it is hard. I mean, especially if, and I can't remember what percentages they used, but I want to say it was something like 110% maybe.

James de Lacey44:35

I know it was 110%.

Tim Suchomel44:35

And I also know another study, that group of studies that will be coming out of that lab. They performed high-volume training as well. So they did every other repetition in a set of 10 with 110% on the way down. So as you can imagine, the stimulus of that is incredibly significant.

But I would make the argument that the more times you add the hooks on, are you truly resisting the eccentric phase on the way down or are you just like get this off of me? I don't want this on me anymore.

And I remember a conversation over on X with somebody or on Instagram that I posted a video of me doing some squats with the weight releasers and I said what the percentages were and everything. He said, "Well, I did 120% on the way down and 80 on the way up and I did a set of three." And I said, "How did it feel?" And I believe the quote was "I saw Jesus."

So I mean, it's kind of a classic example of, it sounds like a good idea, I can use heavier loads, but you have to actively resist it. But if it's going to compromise technique in the way that you would perform subsequent repetitions then it's obviously going to be possibly too much.

James de Lacey46:10

And when you are on rack over 1RM on your back and you step out of the rack and you go, "Oh, this is actually really heavy."

Tim Suchomel46:25

I mean the first time I did it I think it was something like 110% or whatever and I had practiced with the weight of the empty weight releases and things like that and I said, "Well, they're either going to fall off or they're not."

So the first time you do it I would certainly tell people, do them empty first to make sure that they're falling off at the right height. You want them to stay on for something like a squat or a bench press. You want them to stay on as long as possible but you still have to have that amount of room at the bottom where you move past that they fall off and then you come back up.

So if I'm performing a full range of motion squat, they need to fall off before I get to the bottom because they're falling off and that's not safe.

James de Lacey47:15

That's death.

Tim Suchomel47:15

I mean I understand that death is a great motivator, but I don't wish that upon anybody putting a for sure.

James de Lacey47:15

I think what would be good for listeners as well is where do these fit within a program and I think just to put them in context, let's just say someone has a fight coming up in three or six months or something like that. Where would they fit say in that little timeline? If at all. Stuff or...

Tim Suchomel47:35

Just AEL stuff and we can even touch on some of the other eccentric work too as well if you like.

I mean like the concentric side of things, eccentric training methods have a spectrum in terms of how they are performed. I would make the argument that your strength characteristics, rapid force production eccentrically, obviously, you want to build those strength characteristics or kind of that force ceiling before you start to work or focus exclusively on the rapid force production side of things. I think they should go hand in hand, but when there's more emphasis later on.

So something like AEL in terms of your squats, your bench press, or whatever people would use, that's going to be in terms of, that's going to be your strength type phases, low repetitions and probably like three reps or fewer. When it comes to that, you can load it up, still perform it safely, but really emphasizing that high force component of it.

That being said, you can also still use them from a rapid force development standpoint where you have a lighter load on the bar, but still a heavier load on the hook. So in this case, if you went down with your 1RM and you came up with 50%, you're going to be down here, you're pushing, you're pushing, then you're like, "Oh, I'm standing up already. How did I get here?"

But the idea is, you're using that as the high force production component to a bridge to rapid force production. That being said, some of the other methods, something like accelerated eccentrics where you are, or even AEL dumbbell jumps where you're moving faster, so still producing higher forces than what you would normally do eccentrically, but moving faster along that is going to benefit you as you get closer and closer to a fight, for example.

So something like a drop catch is going to be very rapid force production over short period of time, which when it comes to fighting is crucial because you need a lot of force and you need it quickly. In addition to that, you can still use some of the more, I'll call them submaximal AEL components to it.

It's not to say, and this is a common misconception when it comes to weight releasers and what we've used with a squat or bench, you don't have to use maximal or supermaximal loads every time. As long as the load is heavier on the way down and it's lighter on the way up, it's still AEL. It's just submaximal AEL.

So even if someone did something like 80 or 90% on the way down, which they'd be able to do normally, and then they perform a lighter movement, your 50, 60%, you're still adding additional force component than what you would normally do. Obviously, heavier loads are going to give you more force. I understand that, but you still have to be able to actively resist it.

So in summary, farther out from the fight is where you would probably have those really high force components, the really strenuous aspect of it to build that force ceiling, but then you start to incorporate some maybe the submaximal AEL squat, bench, whatever, incorporate the dumbbell jumps, that type of component, the accelerated eccentrics, the plyometric component, and even if you're doing things like flywheel, you can modify the eccentric stimulus in terms of where you're stopping the wheel.

Because if you're performing full range of motion movements, are you free falling into the bottom? You may get crushed if you do that, but if you free fall into the bottom, you're going to see a lot of force quickly, but it's really difficult to come out of that.

What some people will do is to overload that a little bit more. They'll hold on kind of like to a barbell with their hands. They'll push and then just accept it on their legs, which will provide an additional overload that way as well. So different components. The trick, I've said...

James de Lacey51:57

Oh, that was perfect. And for maybe the listeners who are thinking about starting this, are there any guidelines that you would have for someone who maybe isn't quite ready? Obviously you mentioned about becoming stronger etc., but any just general guidelines for someone who maybe should avoid it initially?

Tim Suchomel52:11

Well, I mean again, it's kind of like, it's kind of like if we were talking about weightlifting movements before, you can do things that are incredibly basic that lay the foundation for doing different types of eccentrics.

And classic example is doing things like a snap down, from a really tall position, arms up here, snap down to a low position, just to accept those eccentric forces quickly, doing that from bilateral standpoint, both legs, unilateral to one side, drop and then progressing to dropping off of boxes, and then start to incorporate more eccentric and concentric combined, where you're doing things like pogos, and then the key is just being able to stop yourself initially.

So, again, I'd make the argument I'm not going to put a relative bodyweight squat on this in terms of what people should be able to do because everyone's different, fiber types are different, and things like that. But, I would start basic with your things like your tempos, your plyometrics in terms of snap downs, drop landings, that type of thing before you progress to things like accelerated eccentrics, submaximal AEL, and then you start to incorporate more of those variations.

James de Lacey53:43

Obviously, the nice thing with something like flywheel is that it's self-limiting. The harder you push, the harder— And one last question for you here as well. For methods of doing, I'll say with the weight releases, whether it's over 1RM or not, are there any other methods or equipment I know weight releases are relatively inexpensive. Are there any other methods or equipment that you can use to do that?

Tim Suchomel54:00

I know that some people have used manual resistance. I only worry about that because if you have people that are pushing on a barbell and then they just move their hands out of the way, the issue with that is one, you have to have a lot of trust with the people that you're doing this with and it's hard to gauge how hard obviously someone else is pushing on that side.

In terms of AEL, obviously dumbbell jumps are one example where you could use chains, you could use kettlebells or something like that. Hell, you could use paint buckets if you wanted to for something that's relatively inexpensive. Just make sure they're closed. But the idea is that you can incorporate a lot of these things with some basic equipment.

And to be honest, being able to do an AEL squat, you're probably going to want weight releases just as probably the safest method to do this. Manual again, I just worry about the people that are going to be involved and the other piece of advice I'd say with weight releases is if you're going to do multiple repetitions with the hooks on, re-rack it. Don't let people just put the hooks on while you're standing there with weight on your back or with the weight over you for a bench press. But yeah, so basically basic equipment.

James de Lacey55:31

Well, perfect. And that's everything I had today. I appreciate you coming on with us. Where can people find you and follow what you're doing?

Tim Suchomel55:45

Yeah, on X and on Instagram it's Dr. T Suchomel. That's where any of the socials you can find me, but all of our— I have a link on my X page to our ResearchGate which has all of our papers that we've published previously. So people should be able to get access to that and happy to have any questions sent over.

Obviously this is stuff that, James, you and I could probably talk about all day long. So to fit a lot of this within an hour is—

James de Lacey56:25

Perfect. I appreciate you coming on. I'll link all those down in the description for anyone that is listening. But I appreciate it, Tim.