Neurovisual Training & Concussion Recovery w/ Dylan Seeley (SSOF Ep 184)

James de Lacey2:11

So now what? So where does that lead you now?

Dylan Seeley2:14

So now I got my own clinic. And then still train athletes mostly. It's kind of a wide mix, man. I just had a guy who I was working with for a while that now he just reported to Mexico. He's playing in the Mexican baseball league. And then fighters, I got some young and up-and-coming guys that I've been working with.

And I kind of just randomly fell into working with fighters. It wasn't on purpose at all. But the clinic that I did my internship at out of school was they sponsored a fighter and he was just fighting in the local promotions and we went to go watch him fight and he lost and I'm like you look like [expletive], let me train you.

And so that was kind of my foray back into training a lot of the athletes and I got him from local scene worked with him all the way up through Bellator and then PFL and then he just brought me more of the fighters from that gym.

And so now I just kind of work with a lot of fighters out of that gym and they got some young guys that are kind of up and coming. So I have that background of things and then I just kind of see a lot of crazy cases I guess week like whether it's the MS stuff or I got an athlete that's like I got a partially torn achilles but I need to play this weekend, what can I do type thing. So it's like [expletive] hits the fan I'm usually the person that they come see.

James de Lacey3:37

But that's a good thing too. So you're just doing a mix of strength conditioning and then I mean we can call it say rehab.

Dylan Seeley3:45

Yeah, rehab in a way. So it's kind of a blend between the two.

James de Lacey3:45

So it's a perfect transition because I think a lot of times people just get into the issue of they go and they see a physio, Cairo, whatever it might be and they're good at getting them to the initial stages but not into a competitive stage.

Dylan Seeley4:02

Or they might just give them absolute [expletive] advice and it sets them back as well. So I ran into that too, being an athlete myself. And so I think that was just a really big issue that I wanted to kind of mitigate. And luckily I already had a fairly in-depth background in strength conditioning. So I was like, okay, well, I can just take you from day one post-op to competing and getting back on podium. And so it just made it really easy to control all the variables.

And so people tend to like it more because I don't now have to go to three different people for one thing. I can just stick with you. And so that's also what's led with to me branching out with so many things that I've learned is that I see so much crazy [expletive] in the clinic. I'm like, okay, God, now I gotta go learn a little bit about this.

And so for my hockey guys, I never played hockey. I grew up in an area where it's warm. We didn't really get snow. But now I work with a bunch of guys in the NHL. And so to understand their hip morphology is so drastically different from any other athlete because they naturally have FAI. Okay. So femoroacetabular impingement, they get that when they skate and it's just a natural byproduct of them skating through adolescence. It's how their bones kind of recorrect for the amount of stress that they're putting on it.

But that ultimately changes how you train them in the weight room because you can do some serious damage if you don't know what you're doing with it. Same thing with baseball players, they get humeral head retroversion. So their shoulder, the humerus actually spins backwards which allows them that [expletive] back position a lot deeper and that's why they can get so much velocity on a ball. But that also changes how you train their shoulder because it's not like a gen pop person.

James de Lacey5:33

So what would be some examples then of say for that hockey player's hips and the baseball player's shoulder? What would be some considerations you're looking at the gym?

Dylan Seeley5:41

So for baseball players we're looking at maintaining a bit of internal rotation strength throughout the year but also maintaining that external rotation. A lot of it is just training in those [expletive] back layback positions. Looking at shoulder blade positioning because a lot of guys if they can actually throw pretty hard, I've worked with some guys in the Toronto Blue Jays pipeline and so guys can, they got some heat behind it.

And so when you're touching upper 90s low 100s your shoulder blade will actually start to wrap around your rib cage like it's way off to the side and that's just a natural adaptation from getting that reach to the glove. But now that predisposes you to lat tears because now your lat is in a far worse off position to stabilize everything else. And so that's why you'll see lat tears with guys that have insane velo. So now that you have to take that into consideration when you're training them, especially how their shoulder moves and everything else from a stabilization standpoint.

As far as hockey, it's just not going, you need it, it's kind of a weird thing. I've talked to so many people about this. You have to train internal rotation, but if you train internal rotation too much, you wreck their hip. So it's a fine balance. Nobody has a good answer. I've talked to so many strength coaches that work in hockey and we're all like, I don't know, we're just doing it and hoping it doesn't [expletive] them up because there's not a perfect answer and that's the trickiest thing. So it's really just having an open dialogue with the athlete, making sure you're doing all the right stuff.

James de Lacey7:11

Interesting. So in that baseball example, you're saying you're loading those extreme externally rotated positions to strengthen. Is that what you're

Dylan Seeley7:19

Also isos from some of those positions. So I might iso them from an internal rotation standpoint. So I might load them here. They're already in the [expletive] back [expletive] back position and we might just do submaximal isos to train that internal rotator to be acceptable, to want to accept length in that position. Otherwise, it just gradually tightens up, tenses up, tightens up, and then they start to lose motion over the shoulder and that's a big predisposition for that injury.

James de Lacey7:49

Gotcha. And then for the lats, you mentioned obviously they can be susceptible to injury there just because of the positioning. So what is something that you're trying to address there? Is it just as simple as someone saying just do more pull downs and pull-ups with the one?

Dylan Seeley7:49

Yeah, in a way just changing the positioning of where we do the pull down from. I might pop their chest up a little bit more to force them to almost pinch their shoulder blade in to try to bring it in more.

Because I almost kind of describe everything as like if you're all the way out to the edge, there's no more room for that shoulder blade to move. If I bring it back in, then I can keep going back out. If that makes sense. It's almost just like a not a true joint centration type model, but you just need to be able to go both ways, which is just normal training, I feel like.

James de Lacey8:34

So then within the combat athletes you have, do you see any of these kind of things come up or what do you see typically come up around these regions?

Dylan Seeley8:44

Your classic shoulders, hips, low backs that usually tends to get a lot of people. Joint lock positions or especially in jiu-jitsu, depending upon the style that you play, like if you're a guard puller or getting caught in side control a lot, like you're trying to shrimp out of things and keep your posture and so that requires a lot of the, it's called the quadratus lumborum. So it attaches from base of pelvis to or top of pelvis to bottom of rib cage.

And that always gets pissed off of grapplers because you're usually even if you're like a wrestler, you're still bent over into that position. So it's constantly being put on strain. So it's something that we have to actively attack and try to strengthen it up. But also we're going to train a ton of oblique to then offset that tension because the oblique, the adductor both kind of offset the tension from that QL.

And that's same as you run into with hockey because when you skate and you push off the ice, you don't actually reach triple extension, you lift your hip right at the end, which is all QL based work. And so a lot of hockey players have super tight low backs coupled in the fact that they have hardly any internal rotation left on their hip. So they're always going to be super tight in their back.

James de Lacey10:02

So then what would be some examples then for a jiu-jitsu athlete listening to this to attack some of those areas?

Dylan Seeley10:02

One of my favorite things to do is grab a heavy medball or it could be one of the strong man bags and we'll just lie on our back, put the bag on our hip, gable grip around it, and then pull it across from a straight leg position. So, I can't anchor from my legs and just take it from one side over to the other because you're training it in a rotational capacity, but you're taking leg drive out of it.

James de Lacey10:32

So, you're lying flat on your back. You're saying with your legs straight?

Dylan Seeley10:36

Yeah, flat on my back, legs straight.

Ball off right hip. Take it up. I almost pull it to my chest and then I dump it over to the other side.

James de Lacey10:43

Okay. So, you're almost up and up and down almost.

Dylan Seeley10:47

So, up and over. But the heavier the ball, the better. I can even put on like I use that for the hockey players a lot too because a lot of hip issues. So, the oblique and the adductor actually kind of blend together at the aponeurosis. And so, if one side is, if one of these are just too weak, we're going to kind of get an inadequate amount of tension.

And so it's not going to hold my pelvis the way that I want. And so I'm going to end up arching and popping my hip through. And this is what gets hockey players in trouble and they start getting these sports hernias is just because they start lifting and then they get a shearing of that tissue, it's just getting pulled apart and that's what gets them into trouble.

Same thing with being able to drive off hip extension from a takedown. If I can keep you in a better position and I can actually get the drive I want from that oblique and everything else to hold my hip still, it's so much easier to drive through than it is if I have to kind of squirm around to get the position I want.

James de Lacey11:40

Interesting. I'm going to try that exercise. I like the sound of that. Is other just general kind of rotation side bend stuff also going to address some of that or is—

Dylan Seeley11:51

Yeah, in a way. I mean you can landmine, there's so much stuff we can do. We hit it from a different emphasis depending on where we're at, out of camp, in camp or what the training goal might be. So there's times where I want to almost remain as rigid as possible in my hips to really try and stress it from the upper body standpoint, from the thorax, and then there's other times where I'm just rotate it all in one go and just try and generate a ton of power, right? So it's just whatever the training goal might be for that day.

James de Lacey12:18

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Nice. That actually reminds me you mentioned now those medicine balls with the ropes that you slam against the walls. You standing against the wall. I remember that back in the day and you would slam both sides. I could see that being similar if you're lying on your back on the floor too if you want to do that power version that you mentioned.

Dylan Seeley13:30

It's almost like we used—I haven't seen those in ages, man.

James de Lacey13:33

I know. Think of it.

Dylan Seeley13:34

Bring them back.

James de Lacey13:36

New trend.

Dylan Seeley13:37

But it's such a good way to learn to disassociate hip and rib cage, just to maintain that level of flexibility. That's why I'm a big fan of using kettlebell arm bars in the warm-ups a lot of the time too just to teach that disassociation between hip and rib and try and get that separation but also stretch out that QL on the process too.

James de Lacey13:49

The one where you're lying with the kettlebell up and you're moving basically windshield wipering your legs, right? Your leg.

Dylan Seeley14:04

Yes, your leg. Like you roll your leg through and then I teach a little bit of a side crunch variation. So we'll take our leg all the way across, kind of stretch out that low back. You might even get a nice little back crack out of it. And then we'll post that arm up and then almost side crunch to recruit a little bit more oblique and then roll.

James de Lacey14:22

Okay. I like that. I like that one, too. That's a cool little variation. Is there anything, you obviously mentioned around the hips QL there, is there anything upper body wise maybe MMA guys strikers that you focus on even at the shoulder, shoulder bicep, elbow, those are usually would get pretty jacked up?

Dylan Seeley14:22

I mean obviously hands so making sure we're conditioning our hands I think is a big thing and it's such an old school slept on technique. A lot of hockey guys do it where you're literally just sitting and you're just lightly punching a granite counter top because you're just trying to remodel some of the bone. They're just making it as hard as humanly possible.

And some guys are dumb enough where they'll just go bare knuckle on a heavy bag and just [expletive] their hands up. But I just tell them I'm like there's an easier way to do that with some of the tempering stuff. We can just repetitively on a hard surface just do that lightly. And if you do it long enough the bone, I mean it's Wolff's law, the bone's going to remodel to lay a little bit thicker to protect us a little bit more.

And especially on the outside with that pinky, because that's where we get our boxer's fracture at, right there. Because if I catch it right on the outside and my hand curls, that gets displaced. And so that's a good way to kind of cover our bases. Ideally, you never get into that position where you're throwing that [expletive] of a punch, but sometimes [expletive] hits the fan and that's just what we have to do to protect it.

James de Lacey15:43

And then what are you doing? I mean, obviously probably depends on the person, but what are you doing generally around the shoulder, elbow, bicep?

Dylan Seeley15:43

I've been playing around a lot more with those low threshold ISOs from internal, external. I got some videos I can send over to you too. I've been playing around a lot more with sticking an ISO position and then just moving my body around because that's really how the rotator cuff works. It's just meant to hold your humeral head still while the rest of the arm and the body moves.

And most people just do the same banded external work.

James de Lacey16:17

Yeah. I was going to ask you what's your take on those?

Dylan Seeley16:17

I use it, but I'm very diligent in how I coach it. I got a story of a young baseball player. He had torn his labrum, went through six months of PT, got cleared, he did all the isokinetic testing, everything came back great. Numbers were equal side to side. Goes to throw a ball. Shoulder hurts all over again. He thinks he retore his labrum.

So I get a call. I take a look at him. And then I put him in that same shoulder position that you would test for some of the isokinetics for the baseball players. And he's strong, both sides are equal. The only thing I asked him is, "Where do you feel this?" And he goes, "I feel it in my trap."

I'm like, "Okay, so we're not really leveraging the back of our shoulder." So he just compensated his way through six months of physical therapy.

So then every time I cue it, I always cue like take your shoulder all the way back first, come back halfway. That's usually going to be like center of socket for most people. And so from a joint centration standpoint, that's usually the easiest because the length tension relationships are fairly balanced in that position. Doesn't mean you need to train that all the time, but from a rehab standpoint, it's just an easy cue to give people.

So I say, "Okay, find that center point. Now relax our shoulder. Take it back to that center point and then do your external rotation." And all of a sudden, he's like, I just feel it right back here. It's like perfect. Now you're actually working your rotator cuff and you're not compensating around it.

James de Lacey17:37

Gotcha. And to make sure that's more like that post-op rehab purpose, it's not going to give you enough load. What's your take then on kind of isolating, like a lot of people will think they want to isolate it versus maybe more integrated approach around the shoulder. Where do you sit in that?

Dylan Seeley17:55

I use both. Like if I'm isolating it, I'm taking it to failure. I think that's the other issue that people run into is they just go and it's like three sets of 10 with the lightest band in the physical therapy building, and I'm like that's not going to do anything for you. And so I will take it until you're shaking and you fail. And I'm like, "Okay, cool. Now go in. Let's do a bottoms up kettlebell press. Let's see where you're at."

Because now that's a true reflection. Now I put you in a fatigue state and we can actually drill this thing a lot more. But I think a lot of people just don't push the rotator cuff isolation work hard enough. It's just like a 3x10.

And it's like for me it's we're going to take that thing to absolute failure. And I might even do some manually super maximal eccentrics on top of it too. Like I'd be like, "Hold this position and I'm just going to jam you all the way back at the end of that iso." Like for the football player that I was rehabbing up today, all we did was just some lateral hip work, just traditional leg raise just to hit a little bit of glute med.

And I was like, "Take it for time. We're just going to make it fail." And so took it for about a minute. And then that leg was shaking like crazy. And then all I did was just start adding some supermax eccentrics. And you had three reps on that and it was just fried.

Well, you just have to send it. I think most people, they just kind of sandbag a lot of the rehab and then they jump into the lifting and they're like, I don't know why it's not working. Like, the rehab sucked. And it's like, no, your effort sucked and that's why it didn't stick.

James de Lacey19:06

That's way too common than I think people would like to admit when we talk about rehab and what's usually prescribed and how potentially it's, I don't know if it's just more on the conservative side because maybe the physios or whatever don't want to injure, like risk reinjuring the athlete or whatnot, but it definitely happens.

Dylan Seeley19:45

It's because they're stuck with a protocol. So, usually you're working in a group setting and they're rotating like the physios a lot of the time. Like if you go to a group setting, so you're very rarely working with the same physio every single time. And what happens is you then get the same standard protocol that everybody else is doing there.

And if you go outside of the protocol and you get better faster from that one physio, now it looks bad on the company because everybody's going to want to work with you and that's what the company's designed for. But also, if you go outside of protocol and you [expletive] them up, now you're liable.

So the goal, the intent is always just stay within the protocol, slow and easy but the people I work with, they're getting paid millions of dollars. We don't have time to dick around and wait three weeks and hope it gets better. But that's the other thing with team sports, a lot of people don't realize the staff, like from the medical side of things, they pay to be the team doctor.

So you're getting a, not [expletive] doctor. I mean, there's definitely some [expletive] team doctors out there that I got to deal with, but you'll look at some of the rehab plans they get and some of what the doctor's doing, you're like, "What is this?" Like, "This is the same thing I'd give a geriatric patient, not a pro athlete." Right?

I remember there was a guy that got hurt earlier this year in the NHL and the team was like, "All right, it's going to take four weeks to get back on to playing, right?" We get a call, we look at him, I work with him for three days, and he played on day four.

And this [expletive] is not that hard. Just load it and progress it from a tolerance standpoint and then just tape it up and you're good. It's not rocket science.

James de Lacey21:17

I hope they gave you a nice little bonus for that one.

Dylan Seeley21:20

No. Because it's funny because it's almost like I have to stay a ghost because if they tell the team that they work with me, then it looks really bad from the organizational standpoint. But a lot of guys have somebody they go with to work with behind the scenes.

James de Lacey21:31

That's a very American sports thing too because around the world you don't see that.

Dylan Seeley21:37

So funny enough, the guy from we were talking about within Super Rugby, I had a call with another athlete and pretty much they were about to go do a lift and he was like what do you think of this lift? Should, is there anything I need to do or don't need to do or I can just tell the strength coach I'm not going to do this. I'm going to do my own thing.

And the player looked at me and he was like are you [expletive] serious? He was like, "If I told a coach I'm not doing any of this [expletive] I'd be sent off. There's no chance of me coming back to this team." And I was like, "Yes, this is the very American way of how sports are handled. Everybody has their outside guy and they do all this shit."

Now, I'm all for collaboration. So, I always tell the athlete I'm like, "Hey, put me in contact with the strength coach. Go do vast majority of this [expletive] anyway." And if something pops up, just tell them that this doesn't feel great. I think people get a big ego about it and they're like I want to be the guy that's the man behind the scenes and I'm like I don't really give a [expletive]. I like being a ghost.

James de Lacey22:32

Nice. I saw you've been posting some neurovisual stuff recently and that's piqued my interest for a while now. I've had Dan Victor on the podcast talking some of the neuro stuff. I've had Sean Sherman from Square One talking stuff on here. So it'd be interesting to kind of go into your take and your uses of it or maybe even just how what the hell it even is to begin with.

Dylan Seeley22:53

So, I got into neurovisual stuff at the tail end of my playing career because I racked up so many concussions that the game had moved so fast that I just couldn't keep up from a perceptual standpoint. I go back and watch film and I'd make a shitty pass and I'd be like, "Why did I do that?" Because the guy's 6 meters away and I'm thinking he's only a meter in front of me.

And so I'm like, "Something's off here." And then I get full-time working and we had this one where the clinic was set up. I'd have to round the corner on my left-hand side to go to the front desk and every single time I would clip my shoulder off of that side of the wall and it just became a running joke that me and that wall had beef and I didn't know why.

And the issue is that I had essentially midline shift. My vision had gone from here to here. So I never perceived that the wall was as close as it was on my left hand side just because I didn't realize it was there from a visual standpoint. And then I had a patient that actually was a neurooptometrist. I never even heard of those. And so I went and got an eval and they're like, "Hey, your eyes are pretty [expletive] up."

So I was like, "All right, let's dive into this stuff a little bit more" and it became a fascinating thing because I work with a lot of athletes for concussions. That's kind of my specialty. And it just became a fascinating piece. And then I started to integrate it more and more and I'm like, "Oh, wow. This actually has downstream effects with shoulder complaints or neck complaints or how a hip moves or just weird stuff like that" that the Square One guys are noticing or that Victor has talked about in the past with some of these things.

Because he loves to give that example of making lose march and it cleans up a lot of the movement. So it just became such a fascinating thing for me and then I just realized it's all kind of connected, right? You can't isolate any systems within a body. They all kind of feed off of each other.

And that's what made me really dive down that rabbit hole. So, with neurovisual training, you're training your eyes, but your eyes are just an output of the brain. And then your brain ultimately has to communicate with the vestibular system, which is inner ear, and then some of the joint receptors within obviously the joints that kind of give feedback, but then also some of the receptors in your neck.

And so there's just so much overlap with things. And then it just became such a fascinating tool. And you can even apply it to your training that you do a lot of time which Victor has done extremely well.

So it's one of my favorite tools to go to to kind of eval athlete because a lot of people realize that they're not good at some of these drills and it's like these are just hidden gains that are on the table. Imagine if we clean this up how much easier the game would be for you.

James de Lacey25:31

So where can people start if they listen to this, okay, they want to train their eyes or evaluate their eyes or whatever it is. What's the first thing that someone could do on their own at home? And I guess how can they decide whether it's an issue or not?

Dylan Seeley25:48

So easiest way to kind of determine whether it's not actually an issue. And everybody kind of has some issues to some degree. It's just how big of an issue it is. I'll do positional stuff. So cardinal fields of gaze. I'll just take my thumb and I'll go up and try and hold it and I'll just take it in peripheries and different angles and see how uncomfortable is this on my eyes, right? So now I know, okay, my eyes don't really want to pull to that way. I can start to work that.

I can also test going up and down from an eye tracking standpoint. You can record yourself going side to side, do my eyes do one of these and jump back. Same thing with tracking on the angles. You can also do convergence, so tracking in stuff like that. Do you see one finger the whole time or does it split into two? When does it get blurry? Stuff like that. Those are some pretty good evaluations on yourself that you can do.

Otherwise, find a neurooptometrist or find someone that's trained in neurovisual training, which I feel like is very few and far in between. So it's kind of hard to find somebody like that. Because I think we only have two maybe three decent neurooptometrists in all of Columbus, Ohio. So it's really hard to find somebody. And then even me as a chiropractor doing neurovisual training is also extremely rare.

So most of the people you're going to find are either neurooptometrists that are doing a lot of this stuff because they even have the tech to be able to do so because the [expletive] is super expensive when you really dive down the rabbit hole.

But then coming in wise, there's so many tests that we can do. Another little test from a vestibular function is just start squared up on something, close your eyes, slowly spin in a circle, stop where you think you started. So do it clockwise, take note of where you're at, do it counterclockwise, see if you're off kilter when you finish.

And then you can even test, you can bias certain canals within the ear. So you can kind of tilt your head one way and then spin, tilt your head the other way and then spin to kind of isolate out some of these canals a little bit better. Just a never-ending rabbit hole of stuff.

James de Lacey27:55

Okay. So say someone does this little eye tracking stuff and eyes don't move smoothly. It does that little jump that you mentioned.

What's the next step for someone to do and then when you say clean it up, what does that mean? Does that mean you do something and then suddenly you're good for a while or do you have to keep doing this stuff?

Dylan Seeley28:13

It usually takes a bit of time to continually build upon this stuff. But I think the residual for most people I've seen has been three to four months at a time. It's pretty good. Because there's even software I'll use to track some of this stuff. There's apps on your phone where you can track a lot of these things now. But usually it's limited to the practitioners. So it's really hard to just buy it for yourself and then interpret the results.

But cleaning up wise, it's just okay, I know I suck doing a certain drill. Let me find out why I suck at this drill and then okay, here's how I train it up. Honestly, one of the easiest ways to do so is just use an eye patch and just sit outside and look at the world for two to five minutes at a time and then flip the eye patch. It's one of the easiest things to do because that's just basic homework I give everybody.

And then from there, we'll do some search and scan drills. I have a piece of paper I'll send it over to you. I have a piece of paper that I made and it's got a bunch of numbers on the piece of paper and it's got my logo in the background kind of on a gray scale. And so some of the numbers are black on white and those are really easy to pick out from a contrast perspective.

Some of the others are black on gray so it's flush on my logo and some are half on half off. And the numbers are all jumbled up all over the piece of paper.

And so I tell people cover one eye just tap one through 30. And so it's a really good drill to see how good are you at picking out things against contrast. What does your search and scan drill kind of look like? How's your search pattern go? And then what's our eye fatigue do? Because blinking your eye repeatedly is a sign of mental fatigue. We see that all the time, especially when you're really tired.

If you ever had a long drive late at night, you're always kind of closing your eyes and doing one of those. So it's a really good way to kind of see, okay, this is something I definitely need to train up because I'm blinking like crazy and it's taking me 30 seconds longer to get through this eye compared to the other eye.

James de Lacey30:06

Interesting. So the eye patch thing, you would do that daily?

Dylan Seeley30:09

Yep. Just daily because again, we tend to bias a lot of things with our eyes. You're always going to compensate thing that's better. And so your visual acuity might be really good out of this eye and so the visual acuity might not be as great from the other eye. And so your brain just goes, I trust this one a little bit more from the processing standpoint. So you naturally become very reliant upon this eye and now this eye not as much. And it just creates discrepancies over time.

James de Lacey30:36

And so I'm trying to bridge the gap between those two and almost get them level would be the ideal from that situation.

So what could someone potentially expect say they started doing this daily? What would they potentially notice?

Dylan Seeley30:50

Increased peripheral vision is a big thing. Clarity within the vision, a lot more sensitivity to things moving. You can pick it up a lot easier. I got a story from one of my SWAT guys I work with. They had to go they had a hostage situation. He was third man in. So they had breach and then they went through flashbang went into the room. One guy had far right corner, another guy was dead center. The per was in the back left corner and the first two guys that went through did not see him because the room was so dark and so they didn't see him.

My guy came through and he goes, "I just saw the faintest glimmer of light and it's because when he pulled out his gun to shoot he could see he recognized that quick change of light and so he neutralized the threat and then saved the other two guys' lives in that situation." So I'm like, "How valuable is it?" And he was like, "This [expletive] is [expletive] awesome."

James de Lacey31:45

The most valuable.

Dylan Seeley31:47

So yeah, it's such a cool underrated thing that most people just don't think about because it's like you always think, okay, I can go train in the gym, I'll train my muscles or I'll train my lungs, my cardio, my heart. It's like you never really think to train your eyes.

James de Lacey32:00

And it's also from anyone who's in a pure stage transitioning sense or performance sense, it sounds woowoo. It sounds like it's just made up [expletive].

Dylan Seeley32:10

And there is some people that take it a bit far and they're kind of full of [expletive] with some of their stuff they're saying online because I'll watch these videos and I'm like that's not the actual pathway to the brain or that's not how that thing actually works but whatever they can say whatever the [expletive] they want. I've seen people do shitty vision training and put people in a hole though too. So you have to be careful with some of that stuff.

James de Lacey32:31

What counts as shitty vision training?

Dylan Seeley32:34

Everybody gets spammed with the same let's do a bunch of pencil push-ups. That's one of the last drills that I ever use for people because it's relying heavily upon convergence and not everybody has great convergence, but you also need binocular vision. So each eye needs to be able to see it accordingly. And if you do this test and you do it right, it should get blurry and then your finger should almost split in it should split into two a little.

And that's because as you get this close, your eyes can't fuse the image. So this eye sees across, this eye sees across, so I see double. Call it a physiologic diplopia. And that's a normal thing. That's what should happen. If you don't get that, that means you're just shutting off the image from one eye because your brain goes, I don't trust that image as nearly as much.

It's not as clear. And so you're just compensating and bury it into this eye. And so if I just do that over and over and over and over again, all I'm doing is just digging myself a deeper hole because now I'm overrelying upon this eye.

James de Lacey33:24

Interesting. And then do you implement any of these vision things into the actual ex, your typical strength training stuff? I know Dan just talked about, I think even Sean Sherman talked about doing some kind of eye movement or head movement, doing lunges with your head one way or something like that to see if it's a threat and then doing certain exercises. So are you incorporating this with an exercise itself too?

Dylan Seeley33:46

That's more of a rehab thing for me. I won't do that as we load it up because I feel like you're just kind of half-assing two things. I'd rather just get really strong in that position and then just use the head positioning stuff maybe as the warm-up to go into that drill.

Within that, it makes sense because obviously as I turn my head I'm changing the vestibular input. So do I feel as comfortable on that side? And so there are things that you can kind of train up from a head position, from an eye position standpoint. You could put anybody in a position to create a threat for the most part.

So I will use some of that, but I'm very big on trying to reduce the amount of suppression that somebody gets in a state of fatigue. And so we might do that search and scan drill after a set of bench press or after a bit of cardio because it's going to go to [expletive].

Joe Clark, who I, Dr. Clark who I did a fair bit of my learning from with all the neurovisual training, so he's a PhD in neuroscience at University of Cincinnati and he implemented vision training for all their student athletes. And especially within the case of football, he took the concussion rate from 9.2, I think it was averaged across 100 seasons or something, down to two just from the neurovisual training.

Nothing else added into the program. And it's just a fascinating thing for me. I'm like, okay, we can clear a lot of this stuff up, but it really just makes a big difference under fatigue, right? Because people tend to get knocked out later in the rounds when they're very tired.

And you can go into looking at, I don't know if you're familiar with fNIRS, with the functional near-infrared spectroscopy.

James de Lacey35:22

Somewhat.

Dylan Seeley35:23

Where they're looking at it from a cerebral oxygenation standpoint. Once you kind of hit past like VT, come up on VT2, cerebral oxygenation starts to drop and so decision-making goes down but also your vision changes. Your vision actually closes in. Anyone who's ever had a very heavy set of bench has been like, I'm almost blacking the [expletive] out because the walls close in after you get it. And it's because your blood pressure and your heart rate go through the roof and that sets off, it's called a TEEM, so it's a transient exercise-related carotid murmur.

So I'll test this with all the athletes that I work with because this is all based off of Joe Clark's concussion work. We'll put them on a spin bike and I'll just put a stethoscope and listen to their carotid artery. And so they'll pedal for a bit, get their heart rate up, track it. I'll be like, okay, take a deep breath, hold, and I'll listen.

And if I'm hearing a whoosh sound, or if it's just regular, if I hear a whoosh, then I know the blood flow is getting turbulent. It's creating a murmur. And now that blood flow getting up to the brain, it's turbulent. And so with that turbulence, blood flow to the brain, your brain's not going to like that. It's going to start to shut down certain processes.

It might shut off, it might suppress an eye, it might change how you handle things from a vestibular standpoint. You might get a little bit of ringing in the ears. There's little tells that can happen. And so our goal is to kind of evaluate where that TEEM is at, see if we can raise the ceiling on it because it also is a good indicator for brain health. I like testing that post-concussion for a lot of the athletes too.

Because a lot of that kind of goes in line with the Buffalo treadmill test for concussion. I'm personally not a big fan of it because when you're concussed, your vestibular system is pretty [expletive] up. And if I'm jogging on a treadmill, my head's doing this. That's an easy way to set off all the symptoms. If I'm on a spin bike, everything is stationary. So I kind of eliminate that variable.

James de Lacey37:06

Before I go down the road of this concussion stuff, so you could do in between your sets of your strength work, you could do your, as you mentioned, your eye tracking peripherally with your thumb as an eye exercise as an example.

Dylan Seeley37:20

Yeah, you could do that. You could do the search and scan on the paper stuff. You could do near-far accommodation. I'll have a piece of paper with whatever letters, numbers on it and then I'll have another one in the distance and we'll go here, read. You could do saccades where we go side, catch the edges side to side, which people do with this all the time, or you can just read straight across and then you look up and then you catch something in the distance.

And that really measures your ability for your lens to change shape to accommodate light in distance. And so that's a very easy thing. If I go from clinch to now disengage, can my eyes change from being right here to okay, take in space, where their shoulders at, make sure I don't get clipped with the hook.

James de Lacey37:57

So would you say that would be probably the easiest implementation would be to just almost superset it with some of the main work?

Dylan Seeley38:04

Yeah, after they've done it from a fresh state. So we'll usually spend a couple weeks drilling it. So they get, one, familiar with the drills. Two, they actually just get better in a fresh state and then we'll add in a layer of fatigue. And you could do it from a fatigue standpoint. You can do it from a mental standpoint as well.

I'll have people go through and do a drill. And then I might start giving them math equations or asking them about [expletive] they have to think about from the day before or things like that to really distract because now I'm just adding a bit of sensory overload to all this.

And you can really find a breaking point with an athlete. We've done that a handful of times where it's like you almost bring someone to tears because they get so [expletive] frustrated. They just kind of take it because you get so overwhelmed and you start to get actually very pissy and then they just shut down. And it's like all right, perfect, I know where a breaking point is.

James de Lacey38:04

So then in terms of that, will be like overloading say the visual aspect. You obviously mentioned the vestibular with the ears. What are you doing anything with that, say supersetting things or anything?

Dylan Seeley39:03

Well the vestibular stuff, it's a little bit harder to superset that in the gym just because the system's already going haywire and I don't just want to be like move your head real quick and then it's already, you're already kind of out of it and now I'm making your head move and you're just like [expletive], just back. So that one I'm not as much. I really like it from a warm-up standpoint.

I'll put somebody on those big Swiss balls or the physio ball on their back and I'll literally give them, I'll say I'll put something in a corner or I'll stand in a back corner at an angle from them and somebody else is on the other side and they'll go back to bias a certain canal if they're weaker on that side or if there's a bit of a discrepancy and I'll flash a number.

So then they have to call it out and then they sit back up and then they stare straight ahead and then we go back whether it's another way or if it's from a true rehab standpoint we'll stay the same side until I can kind of balance out the equilibrium. But if it's just from a general training side we might flip back and forth with some of these things. And so that's another way to train vestibular work within a controlled environment.

James de Lacey40:08

Nice. Do you have any of this stuff detailed somewhere?

Dylan Seeley40:12

All in my head, man.

James de Lacey40:14

Man, you need to create some resources.

Dylan Seeley40:14

I know. It's so bad, dude. I hear that at least five times a day. I'll get a call from somebody because I'll consult with them or I got buddies that are coaches and they'll be like, hey, what do you do for this, this, and this? And I'm like, oh, it's just easy. It's this, this, and this. Where do you read that from? Oh, it's just stored in my head.

James de Lacey40:14

For the concussion side, do you want to maybe run, I don't want to say give, okay, general guidelines.

Yeah. So because obviously people are going to see, hopefully people are going to see professionals after whatever happens depending obviously on the, I mean some fighters are cowboys and will do whatever. But just general guidelines, okay, someone potentially suffers from a concussion or maybe they don't even know from a fight because I guess some of them may maybe have some TBI but they didn't actually get knocked out. So maybe just where to start from directly after fight, what can someone do to potentially help recover faster and not make symptoms worse, etc.

Dylan Seeley41:17

For me it's like get off electronics, is usually one of the easiest things. And it's not because the light is going to mess with your eyes or anything like that. It's the convergence. We call it near point convergence stress. So right now we're sitting in front of a computer and the computer is fairly close to us. So our eyes have to narrow in, which is the equivalent of doing this pencil push-up, but it has to hold it for a long period of time, whether you're staring at your phone, your laptop, whatever. And so that's extremely hard for your brain to do and hold it consistently. That's a skill. And that's very taxing.

And a lot of people don't realize that. If you've been on your laptop or you've been on your phone for hours at a time, you'll feel the fatigue in your eyes and your brain a little bit. So I'm very big like get off the screens, spend time outside, don't wear sunglasses. A lot of athletes just have very bad light sensitivity. And it's usually you know, post-concussion they start wearing sunglasses and they're like, "Oh, this helps a bunch." And then they just stay wearing sunglasses.

But the problem is we didn't actually fix the problem. We just masked it. So I'm very big on getting outside, not wearing sunglasses because I want the light to enter your eyes. I want you to desensitize that. Obviously don't stare at the sun, but I might say face the other way from the sun and just look that.

Look out there. If that's still too bright, I might say just close your eyelids because your eyelids will filter the sunlight, but you'll still get a little bit of that light. And then if it's still really bad, you can kind of leave your fingers open like this because it's still going to block some of that light.

So I'm very, very big on that stuff. And that decreases a lot of the light sensitivity. I used to wear sunglasses all the time, even indoors because I just had really bad light sensitivity until I said, forget it. I'm just going to get this fixed and now I haven't had any issues. I don't really have to wear sunglasses. I do recommend it if you're on water or if you're on a boat or if you're on snow and it's just because the light reflects down and then comes back up. There's nothing you can do to prevent that.

So I'm very, very big on a lot of that stuff. Spending time outside, everybody's really caught up on red light devices. The cheapest red light device out there is the sun. You're going to get the near infrared light from it. It's going to help you heal. So spend as much time out in the sun as humanly possible. Even if you're in the shade, you still get the benefit of the near infrared light. You also get the UV, so the vitamin D, right? So that helps a whole bunch too.

I'm real big on that. And then you can use colored lenses, whether it's—and they're really cheap on Amazon. You can buy different ones whether it's yellow, green, purple if you got your bell rung pretty good, because that's another way to not fully wear sunglasses but at least have some colored lenses to block out some of the wavelengths that might trigger the headaches. So I'm big on a lot of that stuff.

I'm big on reducing carbohydrate intake. Don't have to go full keto. I mean, they make drinks now where you can put you in ketosis a hell of a lot faster. There's different ketones that you can use, whether it's go BHB, 1,3-butanediol, Tecton's got their own stuff. So I'm big on using ketones as a way to get fuel to the brain because you just might not be able to utilize glucose nearly as efficiently after your brain trauma.

So I'm very big on that, just reducing the carbohydrate intake for a little bit and then we gradually build it back up. So those are some easy things to do.

James de Lacey44:40

I've got three questions that are all over the place for this. I'm gonna start because one goes back to neurovision stuff too because you reminded me of it. But first, let's start with the concussion stuff. The current trend of high-dosing creatine for concussions. What's your take?

Dylan Seeley44:56

It's a good way to [expletive] yourself. I mean it just causes GI distress, but if you look at a lot of the data, I mean I'm not saying it doesn't work. It works, just not nearly as well as what people think. It's way overhyped. Because when you look at the data, it was done on Alzheimer's patients or it was done somebody that had already had neurodegenerative diseases or had cognitive impairments. It didn't work on healthy controls. It didn't really change much.

Plus, when you take in creatine, it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier that easily. So the amount that you're taking, you're getting minuscule amounts across and so you're just really burning through a ton of creatine to not really get the full benefit of it. If you want to take a whole bunch of it, be my guest. I haven't seen anything anecdotally where it made a massive difference with any of the athletes that I worked with. I mean, I've done it to myself too. It's great. I mean, there's research on it for sleep deprivation. I have a three-month old. I live in sleep deprivation.

James de Lacey45:52

Dude, tell me about it. Two under three and they're both not sleeping.

Dylan Seeley45:57

Oh, it's brutal. Mine finally got her first sickness. She's got a little bit of a fever and a cold.

And so none of us are sleeping. I'm running—what's it, 1:37 my time. I'm already a gram of caffeine in. We're just full send today. We just got to power through. And so it's—yeah, a lot of that stuff just doesn't really pan out when you look at it from a healthy person standpoint.

James de Lacey46:13

Okay, my next one for the neuro training. You mentioned the different color glasses. Strobe glasses. I'm sure you're aware of them. What's your take on them for visual training?

Dylan Seeley46:36

Early on I was like, these are dumb. And then it kind of clicked for me. So there's a big argument within the realm of teaching philosophies around skill acquisition of near versus far training. How much of what we do actually transfers to what we're training for. And a lot of people argue and say the vision training you're doing is not going to specifically transfer to the sport of what they're doing. It might not, but better to error on the side if it is.

And a way for near training is strobe glasses when you're doing touch sparring. Obviously don't put them on and go full go and get your [expletive] rocked, but it's a good way to speed up process, your perceptual awareness, because now you're just getting—we do this with tachistoscopes where I give you an image on a screen and I take it away real quick and I say tell me everything that you saw in the image and I might embed a word or a specific jersey or other things that I'm hoping you pick out. And so you have to get very quick at reading, analyzing the situation and then giving back the information of what you saw, right?

Theoretically you could do the same thing with Snaptech is the big company that runs those goggles. And so they have the shutter where it drops off and on real quick. And I think that's actually a great way to do it. I think most people are just too afraid to do it. And I don't blame them because it is very risky to do.

I think if you do just some light touch sparring, I think you might be okay with it. Obviously can't go full go, but it's a good way to then get into predict a processing of, okay, I see this move. I go blank real quick. Where do I think it's going to be next?

Because we do that when we evaluate athletes in baseball or football or anything else. They go through the same testing. They go through it. They cut the screen off and they say, "Okay, where's this ball going to end up?" And so now we can see who's going to predict where this thing's going to go because now I know they're very good at what they do.

We call it coincidence anticipation timing or CAT. And CAT is just a combination of dynamic visual acuity. So your ability to track something that's moving, right? And how clear it is and then also contrast sensitivity. Can you pick out the subtle shades of what's going on? Because it's also going to give you an idea of how far away from a background it might be.

So I combine those two things. I can predict exactly where something's going to be. And at the highest levels, it's all just pattern recognition.

James de Lacey49:00

Everybody's the same athletically for the most part. At the highest level, it's all just who can recognize the pattern the fastest and act upon it.

Dylan Seeley49:07

Which is part of agility development there anyway. So you've got just OODA loops.

James de Lacey49:13

And then the third one on what you're saying is you mentioned obviously red light with infrared red light. Obviously there's a billion red light companies now that will exaggerate maybe the effects and the science around it. I'd be interested to hear your take on red light, what it may be useful for.

Dylan Seeley49:30

I mean, I think it's good and bad. If you've had a history of brain trauma, it can actually set off symptoms and make it worse. I've had a handful of consults I done

Where people are like, "Yeah, I did the red light and it set me back months. Couldn't even get out of bed for a few weeks at a time." So that's not going to be the response for a lot of people. Usually if you overdo red light, you just feel lethargic, which I tell people if you're going to do it, just do it at night because you're going to go to bed anyway.

Phenomenal for wound healing. Definitely some benefit from even blood sugar metabolism, right? We've studied this where if you eat under red light, your blood sugar response is drastically lower than if you were to eat under blue light because blue light's apparently stimulating.

So if I have athletes where they're on the—and this is getting biohacky at this point. Guys have millions of dollars, who gives a [expletive]. They're willing to throw it around at whatever and get whatever little edge that they can. I'll be like, just if you're going to go home and eat when you come home from a game, just have the red light shining on you because that's going to inherently drop that glucose response.

And so that's also downstream going to—because spiking our glucose at night is not necessarily great for tendons either because that's when they tend to cycle over. And so we'll see very poor tendon health with chronically high HbA1c or blood glucose or insulin levels. So that's why I'm always very hesitant to just spam high carb diets all the time with athletes because unless you're actually getting your labs done regularly, which hardly anybody is, you don't actually know where you're sitting at and that could impact your healing abilities.

So overall I'm a big fan of red light. I mean I use it. Do you need to go buy one? No. Just go sit outside. You'll get the effect. If you need a concentrated dose of it, yes, you can go get a red light and spend a couple hundred bucks. I'd rather you just get a UV light because then you get the vitamin D from it.

And there's companies that make UV red light combos. EMR Tech has one. But the other thing is when you buy a red light device, you need to know what the power density is. So what the wattage is, what's the radiance distance and all that stuff because people will buy stuff and then they'll set it and they'll sit a foot away from it and it's only rated for 3 inches.

And it's like you're getting absolutely nothing out of this because with light it works off an inverse square law. So for every little bit that you move back drops more and more and more to where you get now no biological effect from it and it's useless.

James de Lacey52:00

Perfect. And then I wanted to touch on—you had a post recently on your Instagram about Nordics, the old Nordic curl that everyone loves. So I guess it was always popular, but then it obviously got more popular I think with Knees Over Toes kind of pushing it even harder for knee health and then obviously in the sporting world it's popular because it's just an assessment people use with a Norboard and they've created a whole metric around it.

So we just need to kind of go into your take around Nordics with, you know, are they useful for anything and then maybe just your take on them generally. I still use, I guess you could call it a Nordic, but it's not really like—because I always keep foot contact against the wall because I want some level of calf contribution.

Because usually if you've played sport long enough your knees are kind of messed up and so the last thing I want is someone just pinning down your tibia and fibula and then your femur just wrenching and your knees usually can feel pretty bad after a lot of Nordic work. I don't know if you've ever had that experience.

I've had that plenty of times. So I'm very big on integrating the calf because you also get better pelvic control because what I tell people is push in and pull up so you're going to get a better hamstring contraction out of that. I'll have them walk themselves out on a physio ball or med ball and so we can do it from a kind of controlled manner.

Dylan Seeley53:27

As far as the testing, honestly man, I think it's pretty useless. I've had athletes with 30% discrepancy and be totally fine. And then I've had athletes that are at 2% discrepancy and pop a hammy and you're like, "What the [expletive] is going on?"

And I think it just reinforces shitty sprinting mechanics. I mean, the drill itself doesn't, but when you execute that drill, everyone's fighting to not fall. So what are they doing? They're just popping their chest up. They're dumping their pelvis. All these things that you would never do when you sprint. And they're supposed to be like, "Oh, here's a good way to make sure that we're not going to get injured when we sprint."

So it's just a shitty mechanic overall to train that. And there's just so many better ways I can look to train a hamstring. But I had a call with Mal McHugh, who was the sport scientist for the New York Rangers and does a lot of the stuff for the NHL combine. And we got into the whole concept of testing because they're big on using the groin squeeze test.

And what they found was is that it wasn't really all that great of information. And because a lot of the guys, all it did was piss off their groin. So they didn't take it seriously. And then if you did manage to have a groin injury, even if you wanted to push as hard as you could, your body will not let you do it because if we have an equal and an opposite reaction on the other side.

So if this side is going to cause me pain and I push really hard here, it's going to cause more pain here. So I'm just going to naturally downregulate the amount of force I put on the other side. So it's not a true reading.

And then as far as that, he put a really good point. He goes, "We're so fixated on the metric of, you know, it needs to be within 10%." And I'm always sketched out about numbers when they end in a five or a zero, because we usually just pulled it out of our ass. Numbers never work that perfectly. And so when they're like, "Oh, it needs to be at 10%," it's like, "What happens if it's at 11%?" Is that that big of a deal?

And also, theoretically, if I wanted something to be 10%, if I just stopped training my good leg, it would get weaker and then get within that 10%. Is that athlete going to be safer? Probably not.

James de Lacey55:29

Yeah, it's a funny one because it's easily accessible eccentric overload for the hamstrings, which is probably why it's somewhat so popular. It was part of FIFA 11 warm-ups for that reason. But then at the same time, you're training short to maybe middle length eccentric overload. You're never really getting that long muscle length in there. And then it's isolated, so it's never integrated into the other movements.

So it's kind of like maybe for a structural architectural change, sure, but you could get that in a billion other ways that may be more integrated and more applicable to someone's sport or whatever they're doing.

Dylan Seeley56:18

Yeah. And if I want to really train somebody in a lengthened position, I'll just take a band or take a light weight, wrap it around their ankle and then put them almost in a nearly straightened leg position from a prone and just drop their leg a whole inch and just say, "Okay, we're going to hold this for time. It might take two, three minutes." That's going to remodel that tissue way better than that Nordic for about the half a second that you're falling and then you lose control.

James de Lacey56:41

Yeah. It's usually the first in motion is the tension and the rest is kind of just letting go.

Dylan Seeley56:46

The rest is just a belly flop. And then they turn it into a razor and they come back and I'm like it's not really what I was looking for, but thanks.

James de Lacey56:46

What's your take then on other, I guess they would call them injury prevention, quote unquote, exercises—people do Copenhagen planks for groin and stuff like that. Do these fit anywhere into your training philosophy or rehab philosophy?

Dylan Seeley57:08

Yeah, I use them within a warm-up. I'm big on Copenhagen. I don't teach it from the ankle though just because a lot of the guys I work with, the knees are jacked. So we actually just put the knee on a med ball and that creates a little bit of instability and so they actually have to then work harder to maintain that positioning.

But I also think we just can't iso mid-range or one position too much. You still have to train that full spectrum of things. So there's almost a thing I do. It's like a plate slide. It almost looks like a foot sweep. So we'll hinge back on one leg, put a 25 or 45 pound plate out in front of us, and then use the other leg, like the inside of the foot to sweep that plate all the way across, and then just try and stay in a good hinge on that one leg.

So I've used that a fair bit to train some of the other lengthened positions. What's really interesting though with a lot of the groin stuff within hockey, it's the lengthened position that usually tears people's hips up because they're also losing rib cage position. So they're getting the oblique pulling up, adductor pulling down, and then they get into danger. And that's usually what causes whether it's the sports hernia, the adductor tear, whatever might be going on.

Same thing with the kicking mechanic. They bring their leg all the way back, their chest is popped up. That's exactly how it goes. And so I'll find a bench or a heightened table and we'll put our forearms on it to kind of plank and then I'll put their foot on a slider.

And we'll let that foot go out, but they have to actively drive down in a plank to keep the rib cage down, and then bring that foot back in. And it absolutely smokes people. It's super hard to do.

But that's another way I'll train that groin. But as far as injury prevention stuff, this is also a very interesting fact. I was talking about it with one of the athletes yesterday with injury prevention. People get very pissed off at that term. There's like, there's no way that we can prevent injury. But from an epidemiological definition, it's actually correct. But from a colloquial standpoint, it's actually incorrect. And this is where it [expletive] people's heads.

So if you, for instance, we say prevent the flu, wash your hands, right? You can still get the flu even if you wash your hands. But if less people got the flu because they washed their hands, then they technically prevented the flu, right? So that's where the terminology comes from. It doesn't mean everybody didn't get the flu, but if less people got it, then it's fine. Then we technically prevented it for this subset of people.

But for some reason, strength coaches love to be all or none. Like if it didn't prevent the injury for 100% of the people, then it's not an injury prevention program. Now, the terminology I could give two shits about, but I just think that's an interesting point that I see debated every few months, like so many people being in an argument over that on social media.

James de Lacey59:58

People are arguing over everything on social media. It's the world today.

Dylan Seeley1:00:03

I know. It's crazy to me.

James de Lacey1:00:06

Dylan, this was awesome. I thoroughly enjoyed this. Where can people find and follow you? Keep up with what you're doing, because you're still a ghost, but you're becoming less of a ghost, I think.

Dylan Seeley1:00:15

We'll see. We'll see how long the posting will go for. Easiest way to get a hold of me, I guess, is through Instagram. Even though sometimes I'm not posting, I'll post on the story a handful of times, so I'm always throwing some good memes up there. But I'm pretty active just shooting the [expletive] with people on that stuff.

Find me through my website. I'll do consults with people all the time. Email, that's on there. It's another good way too. But yeah, I cover so wide a variety of things that you're just going to get so many interesting approaches. We just probably skimmed 3% of what I actually do.

And it's such a crazy rabbit hole to go down once you start throwing in circadian rhythm and then some of the supplements and then we review the blood labs. I had that with that MS patient today, going through all these blood labs and the doctor's like, "Oh, this is normal." I'm like, "Actually, you're very borderline macrocytic anemic here."

I was like, "We don't." And I was like, I bet you snore, looking at the MCV that he had on his things. He was like, how did you know that? I'm like, I could tell because I can look at the size of your red blood vessel, or your red blood cell, and can pick up that you have sleep apnea.

James de Lacey1:01:22

Damn.

Dylan Seeley1:01:22

So, just crazy [expletive] like that.

James de Lacey1:01:23

Maybe we have to do a round two. Maybe we should do a round two on this stuff. But I'll link up everything in the description for anyone who wants to go into it. And I appreciate you coming on.

Dylan Seeley1:01:32

Yeah, of course, man. Appreciate you having me out.