Banishing Imposter Syndrome & Creating A Persona To Dominate Fights w/ Mona de Lacey (SSOF Ep 66)

James de Lacey0:57

So Mona, maybe start by defining, okay, imposter syndrome, what is it? And what is, I guess, what is the cause of having something like this?

Mona de Lacey2:21

Now the basically the basic definition of having imposter syndrome is a psychological pattern of having constant self-doubt. Now this constant self-doubt, what it will end up doing is you will get athletes, like you were saying, maybe they just graded and they are a, whatever belt, they've just gone on to a new level. It might be a person that is successful already. This might be a high level athlete, an athlete who has competed on the international stage numerous times. This can basically affect numerous athletes of all levels.

But basically what it will end up doing is when you have this self-doubt, often it will lead to things like anxiety when you walk onto the mat or when you walk onto—like for me in my case being an Olympic weightlifter—walking onto the platform. As a coach, it might affect how you coach because now you doubt your abilities.

And at the end of the day, this anxiety will then also make you feel like you're a fraud, even though you're not a fraud, even though you've worked super hard to get to that position. Everyone that is in the same position as you, you deserve that spot, you deserve to be there. But you feel like you don't deserve it. You feel like this is just given to you by, or just happened by luck.

But at the end of the day, this can kill how you do things, it can kill your dreams, it can kill your success, and then it can just affect your performance in general, where if you had to believe in yourself, now you end up doubting yourself and thinking you're not good enough, even though you are.

James de Lacey4:15

Is it just a matter of doing enough training and work and being so confident and familiar with all the different scenarios that you're going to be in that that would be enough to get rid of that imposter syndrome? Like, I've done everything I can to prepare, I've seen every situation that could happen. Do you still find that people still have self-doubt or is that even enough?

Mona de Lacey4:15

If you are a confident athlete, then that's an amazing thing. If you can walk onto that mat, if you're doing martial arts and you believe in your abilities and you know that you've done the training, that is a good start to basically—if you had doubts, it will kill those self-doubts.

But if you start thinking negatively, or maybe someone mentioned to you that, oh, this person has been in this position for 15 years and maybe you just got your black belt, then you start thinking to yourself, am I actually deserving to be here? This person has been here much longer than me, they should be much better than me. So instead of actually measuring yourself against yourself and not against anybody else, then you'll be confident, you'll be on your game.

But as soon as you start thinking negative thoughts, as soon as those negative self-doubts start to creep into your mind, that's when it starts to affect things. And at the end of the day with imposter syndrome, anyone will have imposter syndrome every now and again in their life, may you be a top level athlete, a business person, a coach. Those thoughts do pop into your mind, but it's what you do with those thoughts at the end of the day that matters and how you perform.

James de Lacey5:45

So what can someone do if they start, I guess, having negative thoughts maybe leading into a fight or a competition, tournament, whatever it is? Is it a bad thing to have? Is it normal? Is it worth fighting? Do you just have to ride it out?

Mona de Lacey6:15

No, it's definitely normal, and like I said, I feel like everyone has it every now and again in their sporting career. But the main thing is to be self-aware when you start to have these thoughts, because as soon as you are self-aware, then you know that this is not the thoughts that you should be thinking.

It's when it becomes so automatic that you don't even know what's affecting you and you go onto the mat and you start doubting yourself, and you're not actually sure why you are doubting yourself and you're just starting to feel like, I'm not good enough, or maybe I didn't prepare hard enough, or this person is better than me. That's obviously when it's going to affect things.

James de Lacey6:42

Is there something that you typically have someone do if they're having a lot of negative thoughts maybe leading into competition? Is there something that someone can do to combat this?

Mona de Lacey7:15

Yeah, definitely. So again, when it comes to being self-aware, I often say to athletes, if you are having these negative thoughts, the first thing to do is, again, being self-aware, but grabbing a book, grabbing a piece of paper, writing these negative thoughts down. And it might sound cliche and it might sound, okay, I'm going to be delusional or whatever, but there is a lot of evidence that supports people writing things down, especially if you can't go and see a sports psychologist immediately, if you can't speak to a mentor or someone that will potentially help you combat this.

The best thing that you can do is write these thoughts down, because as soon as you see it on paper, often it creates that extra awareness of now, wow, I'm really thinking these negative thoughts about myself. And often what I tell them is then rephrase these thoughts. So as soon as you start seeing what you're actually thinking, what would be a better thought to be thinking?

Instead of, I'm not prepared, or I'm not good enough, or wow, I just got my black belt, I shouldn't be fighting against black belts who've had their black belt for 10, 15 years, for example. Or, now I'm maybe the new big thing and I'm fighting someone who's been a world champion for numerous years, and now you start thinking, should I be fighting this person? Like, maybe I am just not good enough. Like, I'm not going to be able to beat this person because they just have so much more experience than me. And that's so not the case.

So yeah, I always say write things down, because as soon as you see it, it inks what you think. It's the easiest way to start off doing those kind of things, and then having that positive self-talk. And then start practicing those thoughts in training, because often what ends up happening is if you start having these thoughts in competition and you don't have the mental tools to combat it, then you're not going to be able to combat it immediately because you don't necessarily know what to do. But if you start implementing these mental skills, tools in your training, then...

You can take this skill set to competitions. And yes, you might still go to competitions and have these negative thoughts, but again what's important is if you have these thoughts and maybe you had a bad competition, go back to the drawing board, go and reflect on how your competition went. What went well, what didn't go as well? Don't be too critical, but go and think about the things that affected you in a negative way where you could do better next time.

James de Lacey10:04

What are some examples of rephrasing those negative thoughts into those positive ones?

Mona de Lacey10:04

Okay, so if again using the thought of "I'm not deserving of being here," being saying to yourself "I worked my butt off to get here." And you can make it as hectic as you want, as powerful as you want. Actually, the more powerful you can make it so that you can believe it, the better it will be at the end of the day.

Even if it's like, "Yeah, I did this, I got myself here. I'm just as good as this person, if not better." Maybe if you start thinking thoughts of "Now all these people are looking at me," maybe rephrasing it to "These people are looking at me because I'm a champion, I'm really great. So that's why these people are cheering for me."

James de Lacey10:33

Nice. I think it's interesting as well, different personality types might find this easy and some might struggle. So for example, if we look just from the outside in, if you look at someone like Conor McGregor, right? Very out there, could say extroverted personality with that, wears that on his sleeve all the time. That's his persona, that's I guess you could say that is built into his personality there.

But what about someone who's maybe a little more passive? Like these thoughts might seem to them like they're being too cocky or too arrogant. Is there a middle ground here? Is there a way that someone who is maybe a little more passive and doesn't quite like that, that they can still use these tools, or is there a way they can go about it?

Mona de Lacey11:06

I like how you mentioned Conor McGregor, because even watching his documentary the other day made me see how he is a different person, for example when he's at home and when he's with his family and in general life. But then when he walks into the ring, he's a totally different person. Or when he prepares for his fight, he's a totally different person.

He's got this persona where he takes no [expletive]. He believes in himself. Some people might say he's arrogant, but at the end of the day that's what made him him, that's what made him great. He believed so much in his abilities that he knew when he walked in there, even if he wasn't a better athlete, he would tell himself that he's the better athlete so much that I'm 100% sure that he walked in there believing every single time that he is the best. Like, this guy is a nobody, he's the one that everyone's there to watch.

And if you can create that persona about yourself as well, especially if you are, like you said, more an introverted person—now I'm more an introverted person myself—and what I used to do with Olympic weightlifting is I used to watch videos of, there was a really great weightlifter, world champion, Olympic champion, just an amazing athlete. But when he walked onto the platform, he was super aggressive. He walked on there with confidence. He walked on there like he owned the stage.

And I adopted that persona when I would walk on stage, and it made me a different athlete. I believed more in my abilities, I believed I was the female Ilya Ilyin. And I would literally even before I would go onto the platform at competitions, I would be watching some of his YouTube videos to get that persona in me and get myself psyched up.

So again, I had to do this over and over. I had to practice this in training. I had to start to believe that this is me, I am this confident athlete. And the same thing with people in the martial arts world—as soon as you develop a persona, it could be a persona of maybe a person that you admire, it could be a persona that you just totally reinvented yourself.

Someone that maybe you're a soft person, you're not really aggressive, but now when you walk onto that mat you automatically turn into a dragon or a tiger or something that's just going to make you a whole lot different to what you are normally, but in a positive way that's going to make you perform better.

And that's also a really great way of dealing with imposter syndrome, because now you believe when I'm this person or thing, you automatically just have more confidence and you go out there and you just do it. Because at the end of the day, with imposter syndrome, when you start doubting yourself, you end up pulling back. You end up not taking the risks. You end up feeling like maybe it's better if I just not do it, maybe it's better if I don't give my 100% best. And you keep so much back of yourself that you end up not performing to your best ability.

James de Lacey14:51

I like that. That persona, what I don't, you don't really hear anyone talking about creating a persona for competition. I don't know why. It's really interesting, especially for, as you mentioned, for maybe the more passive or introverted people where you don't want to have your personal, you don't want to be seen like that. You don't want to be seen as the arrogant, cocky one or whatever it is and kind of show that confidence.

But if you have a persona, that person's not you, exactly. So you can be aggressive, be whatever it is, but then once you finish with your tournament, fight, whatever it is, you're back to whoever you are. And you can kind of have that separation, so you can kind of channel, I guess, some of the traits that you want and need to be able to perform well.

Mona de Lacey15:21

And in fact—

James de Lacey15:21

But how can someone go about developing their own persona? I'm assuming you can't just go one day and be like, "Okay, I'm now going to be this person," and then every time you go into training or into a fight or competition, that's just going to be, you know, working. I'm assuming it's something that you have to somehow train into you.

Mona de Lacey15:47

Yeah, definitely. It takes time. It's going to take development. It's going to take tweaking a bit, because it might not work for you. Again, you might be an introverted person and now all of a sudden you are trying to be this persona that actually affects you negatively.

So again, so important to practice this in training and see if it works. And also give it time. Give it time to, for you to get used to it. Give it time for you to make it a part of the person that you are, so that you don't just do this just before competition and all of a sudden you get so overly psyched up that when you walk onto the mat, or like in my case, a weightlifter walk onto the platform, and you actually feel flat and depleted because you've just been putting so much effort into being this persona that it just doesn't work for you. So yes, there's trial and error.

And like what you mentioned as well, the reason why I think also a lot of people don't do this, it's just because people don't know about it. I don't think it's something that a lot of people speak about. I think some people think if they do that, that's when they are a fake or they don't want to come across as arrogant.

But again, you can create this persona. It doesn't mean that you have to create a persona that's now going to be a cheater or someone that's going to not be doing things to the book, or someone that is going to create this image of something that is just totally, totally not you. You still have to have your personality in there as well, because I feel like your personality is still what makes it unique at the end of the day.

You can't 100%, especially if you try and copy someone else's persona, you can't go and 100% copy that person's persona because that's not you. And it might not come natural. So by adopting some of their traits and then combining it with your good traits, I feel like will make the best person at the end of the day.

James de Lacey18:01

That's a good point too. Yeah, instead of just trying to create a whole brand new person, integrate it within yourself. Obviously a good example we heard the other day, Beyoncé was, she Sasha Fierce when she goes on stage. That's her stage persona. So even outside of sport, people are using personas to perform, and that's definitely something that you can look at.

But how do you go about practicing your persona without pissing off your training partners? Because I could imagine if you're coming into training and then suddenly you, this whole new persona training and you're aggressive or whatever else, your training partners might not be happy about that. But is there a way to kind of still develop and work on it while at training without being—

Mona de Lacey19:00

That's a good question. I feel like, again, it doesn't mean that now you have to become arrogant and you have to now go and beat your partners to the death when you do your sparring against them. Still do things according to the book, still do things how you would normally before. But if you start to implement these things slowly but surely, you're not going to go one day from being the super shy person to all of a sudden being this super aggressive whole new person.

I guess you could do it, but it might not feel right, and I'm sure some of your training partners and stuff might call you out on it. But at the end of the day, if you are doing something that's going to enhance your performance in a good way, your training partners should be for it. They should be people that encourage you.

You can even tell them, "I'm going to start becoming more aggressive, I'm going to start believing more in myself because I believe I can do it. I'm doing the work, and what I feel is lacking in my abilities is my confidence. So I am going to change the way I do things when I spar, when I compete." And I feel like, again, when you have training partners that are on the same page as you, these people should actually be there to help better you.

And at the end of the day, they are training partners, but at the end of the day, it's you stepping onto that mat fighting. So you have to also do what you believe is right.

James de Lacey20:19

You can always ask—if you're going to—you can always tell your training partners that you've got a competition coming up and you want to roll or spar whatever, hard rounds. You ask them if they mind if you can go hard and do those things as well, because most people are okay with it, as long as you're not coming in and doing something stupid. But if you're rolling comps then, or even competition classes, people understand it's a combat sport and those things happen.

But with the persona as well, obviously you can dial up maybe the assertiveness, the aggression, and that positive mindset. But can it go too far? Because there's—I guess you can also be overconfident, right? Even without a persona, you can be overconfident, like, "Oh, this is just—this is going to be easy. I'm facing a guy about a level below me, or has only had one amateur, one professional fight, and I've had five. This is going to be easy. I don't have to train as hard, do as much, whatever." So is there a way where people can push that too far and be too confident?

Mona de Lacey21:33

Well, I think that mentally, if you do what you just said now—you say to yourself, "I just don't have to prepare as hard"—we've seen this often in team sports like rugby and stuff. They'll go into—they might be a really good team, but then when they play against a team that's maybe not really that good, it's like they lower their standards. And if that person starts to play better than them, it affects them. It affects them mentally because now they are thrown off their game.

So I feel like you can never—you still need to do the work. You still need to go into every single match knowing that you did all the work possibly you can, because it also has to back up that mental side. Having that amazing confidence and believing in yourself but not doing the work, again, it doesn't go hand in hand. So you need to still do the work, you need to still do the physical preparation, the skill preparation.

You need to go in there knowing that you've got all the physical tools behind your belt. You have to go in there knowing you've got all the mental tools under your belt, and then you will go in there knowing that I've got all the skill set to go in there and make this an easy one.

But yes, 100%, it does happen to the best of people. You might go into something thinking, "Okay, this athlete is not really that good. Maybe they haven't been doing the sport as long as I have, or maybe their skills aren't as advanced as mine." And then you go onto the mat and you start rolling, and all of a sudden this person comes with a whole new skill set that throws you off.

But then again, where imposter syndrome can then start to creep in, because then you will start to doubt yourself. You will think, "Oh, crap, what now? What am I going to do? This person is now throwing me off my game." You need to go and recenter yourself and know that I am good enough. Yes, it's going to happen that someone is going to surprise you every now and again, but you need to focus on yourself. You need to know that I did do the work, I am ready, and then go and actually execute what you've done.

James de Lacey23:43

Coming back to a little bit of the negative self-talk stuff, I think it was Jon Jones before one of his fights mentioned that he imagined every possible scenario that could happen in a fight, or all the negative stuff. So he'll imagine getting his arm broken, getting knocked out, getting choked out, whatever it is, and imagine all the worst of it and then essentially be, I guess, okay with it. So obviously that would be an example of—I don't know what that would be an example of, but that would be considered negative self-talk in a way.

Mona de Lacey24:11

Visualization, I would say, more.

James de Lacey24:11

Yeah. Is that something that you would, I guess, say recommend or have someone do before a fight? And if so, why?

Mona de Lacey24:11

Yes, I would. Maybe if you had to ask me 10 years ago I would have said no, but knowing what I know now and experiencing what I've experienced and seeing what I've seen with athletes—and there's now a lot more research behind these kinds of things—actually visualizing when negative things happen as well, and then visualizing what you would do if these things happen, can prepare you even more for the fight.

For example, if you are a person who only visualizes the good all the time, yes, it's got a lot of positive aspects to it. Yes, it can make you confident, it can make you believe in yourself, which is what you want when you want to step on that mat or in that ring at the end of the day. But if something does go wrong, it often throws that person off the game completely.

But if you already know that if this happens, if that happens, this is how I'm going to react, this is how I'm going to react, then you almost go into that fight super prepared, knowing that you are ready for anything and everything that gets thrown your way.

So I definitely believe it's important to do that as well. But then you also need to make sure that, again, you do visualize when things go right. You do need to visualize being successful. You do need to visualize the belt being handed to you when you win that fight, or you performing a skill that you've never done before. Maybe you just started it in training—you need to visualize that skill over and over in your mind, because then when you actually do it, again, it will feel like you've done it a million times.

James de Lacey26:03

But I guess the question following along that as well is with the visualization of visualizing the negative things, how would you recommend going about it without getting fixated on that? Because I can imagine someone visualizing some of these negative things that could happen in a fight but then getting fixated and getting stuck in the cycle of just thinking the negative stuff. So is there maybe a timeline where you would—okay, maybe it's four weeks out or something, you're maybe going to look at that, then only positive stuff? Or how would you go about doing that?

Mona de Lacey26:31

Well, I feel like if you visualize the negativity or the negative aspect or the thing happening and you visualize yourself reacting to it negatively, then I believe that it can have that negative effect. But you visualize yourself being on your top game no matter what this person throws at you. Say this person goes—and if you're a boxer and he does knock you out—for example, and it is, but not a KO, like he knocks you out, you get up—how are you going to bounce back?

Just having almost like that bounce-back mentality of knowing that if this happens, this is how I'm going to react. So then always having a positive scenario at the end of it, I feel, is still positive.

But if you go and see yourself performing negatively, losing, the person beating you up, the person having you tap out or whatever, then I believe that's going to have a negative impact. Because you're going to go into that fight believing that that person is better than you, that person will do that, and I feel like you just go in there not believing in your abilities at all.

James de Lacey27:27

Along that line, obviously visualizing—

Along those lines, obviously visualizing all the negative things like for example being tapped out or knocked out, there's no positive side of it to reinforce that. So obviously for example that Jon Jones example, he visualized all those things happening and then I guess the outcome of that, if you're going to do that, is you're okay with it and then kind of leave it. Would that be kind of the way you would go?

Mona de Lacey27:57

I would say, for example, if a person gets you—I don't know the jujitsu terms—but if someone gets you in a choke position or something or in a lock, because of things that you've said before, I would imagine myself or visualize how I would get out of it. I won't visualize myself losing, but if I had to lose I would definitely—I feel like in any competitive athlete's mind and how they feel and how they react, no one will be happy about a loss and no one will walk off immediately feeling like I'm okay with this loss.

Because I feel like if you do that, it's not—I mean yes, you probably do get people, but then it's almost like you expected it in the first place. But if you go in there with that mentality of still, if this person gets me in a choke, if this person gets me in a leg lock, or this person knocks me out once, and you have those kind of scenarios in your mind already of like, this is going to be my comeback, this is going to be my comeback, that's actually how you're going to be reacting in the fight itself.

But then say again you lose, you walk off that mat, you know that you gave every single thing in my ability. Yes you'll feel sad, yes you'll probably feel all the grieving symptoms that you will feel. You'll feel angry, you'll feel disappointed, and then at the end you'll accept it.

But again, the important thing is then to go and reflect on what didn't go well and even if you have to revisualize, go and review it, look at things that you could have changed. But then again, a good athlete will also look at these things, know what they need to change, but then also know when they need to leave things behind in the past. You can go and review things that you need to work on, but you can't fixate on that loss.

You can't now think this loss has now defined me as a person because it hasn't. It's a loss and often it sticks with you as the athlete longer than what it sticks with other people. And you might think people now perceive me as a loser or people might perceive me as I'm not good enough or I'm this person that tapped out or I'm whatever, but people don't—people move on with their lives. People go on to watch the next fight, people go on into believing in the next person. People don't fixate on what you as a person has done.

I feel like you as the athlete, you are the one that will carry that with you. So you have to be the one that says to yourself, okay I did lose, what am I going to do to change in the next fight? What am I going to do different? How am I going to prepare different? And then just be like, this is now the past, I'm leaving it behind, I'm now going to be working on to become a better athlete in the future.

James de Lacey31:00

I like that. And you talked about reentering as well. So I can imagine someone who is creating their persona maybe goes into their first tournament, fight, whatever, and maybe gets, you could say, knocked out of their persona. Maybe something happens that I guess was unexpected or something just doesn't go their way and they end up losing I guess that maybe new assertiveness or aggressiveness or whatever it is of that persona and they become themselves again.

So obviously you have, I think you have some reentering tactics or techniques that someone could use to maybe switch them back into their persona if they get, if they lose it?

Mona de Lacey31:31

Yes. Now when this happens, especially if it's in a fight, you have to be able to, like you said, recenter yourself, but almost immediately. You can't take 10 minutes to go and recenter yourself or walk around because you might have to do it like in basically split seconds.

So what I do advise these athletes or what I do recommend is to have these little letting go techniques so that you can bounce back really quickly and you can bounce back really quickly in a match. And even the same thing in weightlifting, it's letting go of what you've done or what has happened immediately and moving on and being that persona again, believing in yourself, knowing that this person knocked me out, it's not going to rattle me—even though it does a bit—but you just have to let it go as best as you can and move on.

But the exercise that I love giving athletes, and again I would recommend you doing this in training so that you have this little technique figured out already so that when you go into your match time you don't have to think about it, it's just going to be happening automatically. Now what I always suggest is you can have a little cue word, a little phrase that you say to yourself. It could be "let go," it could be "confidence," whatever it is. It could be like "I'm an animal" or whatever's going to get you to refocus.

So I always say have a little phrase, have a little word, then have a little actionable thing that you can do. So it could be, if you've got mitts on, say you're a boxer, it could be you just rubbing your mitts. It could be rubbing your pants, maybe you click your fingers, it could be whatever works for you. So have that little physical gesture and then immediately after that, take a deep breath once or twice and then let go.

Very short, very powerful. Again, practice this in training and then this is your little let go technique that you can do in order to just immediately come back to reality and be like, okay, this is me, I'm still in the game, I haven't lost this fight yet. I'm going to go out there and do my best.

James de Lacey33:55

And I can imagine it takes a while to really have this instilled as a natural reaction or habit. How long would someone realistically need to be doing this in training for it to really translate into a competitive fight?

Mona de Lacey34:25

Well, if you think about it, it takes as long as what you are going to train your physical skills. It's not something that's going to happen overnight, it's not something that you're going to master in a week. You need to train this for weeks and weeks and months and months and have the same little let go technique.

Like I said, it must be true to you. It must be the thing that without a doubt, if someone wakes you up in the middle of the night and something happens and you need to do your little let go technique, you must be able to do this without even thinking. So however long it takes you to do something automatically and not think about it, that's how long it's going to take.

So for some people it might be a week, for some people it might be a month, for some people it might be six months. It depends how much you train it in your actual training sessions, it depends how much you make an effort into doing this with intent. And yeah, every single athlete is different, so you just have to keep practicing until it becomes that automatic gesture.

James de Lacey35:14

What's the difference between someone creating a persona—so they have their persona so they are more aggressive, assertive during their fights or tournaments—versus someone who's trying to use past traumas I guess to psych themselves up in a fight?

So one example recently was Anthony Smith in the UFC, and he had someone break into his house with his wife and kids at home, I don't know how many months before that fight, but not too long ago. And he was talking in the fight to his opponent saying that he came after his family, you came after my family, almost to try to psych himself up in that fight, which was interesting to see.

Now obviously that's almost a way of trying to incite that assertiveness and aggression, but it's not a persona. It almost seems like that would be more negative than positive. What's your take on that?

Mona de Lacey36:19

I feel like it depends on the athlete. If you envision negative things all the time, and it depends what kind of negative things—I mean if you go into a fight and you're a fighter and you imagine that this person is the person that's broken into your house and that gets you so psyched up and into the zone, I feel like that's okay to have.

But I feel like if you only have negativity always being the driving force of you becoming a better fighter or someone that's going to get you into the zone, again that's just more of a personal opinion, I feel like it can become toxic. Because you don't have anything positive that's driving you to become a better athlete. Or what happens if, say that thing does happen and say...

Or you start thinking positively. You go into a fight and you're like, "Man, I just feel really good today." Is that going to throw you off your game? I feel like you can't just have one little thing that's going to be the driving force of you being a good athlete. But again, I feel like as well if it's something that works for you and it's something that is going to make you be the best athlete that you can be, and when you walk into that ring you see yourself as a protector, you see yourself as wanting to make sure that you are going to make sure that your family is safe, and that gets you into your zone, then that's going to be the thing that drives you to become a better athlete.

James de Lacey37:43

Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I guess it is very individual with some athletes thriving on I guess more negative thoughts to get them going and then some more positive thoughts to get them going. And it's just I guess maybe a trial and error for most people to figure out. And if someone's going to play with this stuff or I guess try and implement more of these mental things within their competitive sport, when should they start doing that? Is that obviously we mention through training but obviously through sparring as well? Then that's where they should kind of trial everything?

Mona de Lacey38:12

Yes, definitely. You should be starting your mental training if you are months out of a fight. You should be starting your training. Your mental training and your physical training should be one, because at the end of the day, like I said, you want to make it automatic.

You don't want to come the week before competition and be like, "Okay, I'm going to start visualizing. I'm going to start self-talk," and you start to do all these things. And by the time it comes to you getting ready for fight day, it could become so mentally draining that by the time you walk onto the mat you are just overwhelmed with not knowing which is the thing that you're going to use.

Are you going to be using self-talk? Are you going to be visualizing? Are you going to be doing breathing techniques? And you might want to do all of these things and you don't really know which is the one that works for you.

So again, I always say find something that works for you, even if it's just one or two mental skills. Even if it's you having a few affirmations or the way you speak to yourself. If you're an athlete that does maybe get a bit nervous when you do step onto the mat, it might be breathing techniques that you do. Practice these things in training so that by the time fight day comes, this is all the same way as your skills are automatic. You want to make sure those mental skills are automatic.

But I did want to come back to your question that you asked earlier about having these negative thoughts and how, what is my opinion around athletes going on to, if they use that in order to psych them up. And it actually popped into my mind as well: I've known a lot of athletes that come from poverty, for example, and that used to be their driving force because they knew that if they didn't give their all they are not going to have money to put food on the table.

They know they're not going to be able to support their families, and a lot of times this is their way of fighting out of poverty.

And then you get some athletes, then as soon as they start to become famous, fame starts to creep in. They start to become a lot more well-known. They start to make a lot more money. Their attention starts to shift because now they are on camera all the time and they have to basically live the high life. Sometimes this can be very overwhelming for athletes. And then that's more where you don't need to go back thinking that you are this person that now lives in poverty and that you have to think all these negative thoughts that if you don't win a fight that you're not going to be able to put food on your table for your family. That's again where in time, and as you develop as an athlete, so can the things that drive you to become a better athlete.

James de Lacey41:14

I like that. So it progresses with you as you go through your career as an athlete. I really, really like that. And around—I actually forgot what I was going to say. I've got Mia here distracting me, feeding her bottle. Around this: but if someone's listening to this and they've got maybe that, they have a little bit of imposter syndrome or self-doubt or something like that, what are the first I guess few or three, three actionable steps someone could take after this, listening to this podcast, to start implementing I guess these mental skills to be able to get rid of that self-doubt and that imposter syndrome and start to perform at their potential?

Mona de Lacey41:42

So I feel like when it comes to imposter syndrome, it's one of those things where I always feel imposter syndrome when I know I'm going to be doing something big or I know I'm going to be doing something great or I know I'm going to be pushed out of my comfort zone. So for me, feeling imposter syndrome, I have these two choices at the end of the day.

I can either feed the voice inside of me that says I'm not good enough or I don't deserve to be here, or I can feed the voice inside of me saying that you are amazing, you are the best coach, you've done all the work, you are successful. So it's what you do with it at the end of the day that matters.

So when it comes to having those self-doubt, take action immediately. And I have learned this as well the hard way. I had imposter syndrome like many times in my career as an athlete and even as a coach. And to just give a quick example: I was coaching over the weekend and I was coaching my athlete at the USA Weightlifting Nationals. And because I haven't coached in person for a little while, at first I was thinking, "Am I ready?

Am I going to know how to count? Am I going to know how to tactically do these changes? Am I going to be able to psych my athlete up? Am I going to be calm for my athlete?" You have all these thoughts running through your mind, and then it can affect the way you coach.

But before I went to my coaching, I said to myself, "I know what I'm doing. I've done this for tens and tens of years. I know I'm a great coach. I will be able to handle any scenario that gets thrown my way." So I basically went into that competition like head first, knowing that whatever gets thrown our way, I'm going to just deal with it.

And at the end of the day, I want to make sure that my athlete performs the best. Because as a coach, if you have self-doubt, I feel like your athletes will feel that self-doubt as well. So you have to make sure that as a coach you give out this positive energy.

And if you're an athlete, for example, and you might be afraid to take a risk and enter yourself into this big competition, if you have these thoughts, just do it. Tell your coach, "I'm going to do it." Have some people that's going to keep you accountable. Dive head first into it, still make sure that you prepare for it. But at the end of the day, if you've written your name down and you know you're going to do it, then at least that is the first step in you making that imposter syndrome into a positive thing and not letting it negatively affect you.

And then secondly, I would say if you are dealing with these negative thoughts and it's starting to become really, really bad, again, take a pen and paper, write down those negative thoughts, write down what of your fears. And then also write down what is the worst case scenario. What can happen if, what's going to happen if you do this? No one's going to die, nothing physically is going to happen to you. It could just be you putting yourself out there and it can actually turn into a really amazing thing. And if it doesn't, you learn from it.

And then thirdly, what I would say is if it's something and you have absolutely no idea how to deal with it and it's just starting to cause a lot of anxiety and depression, always seek professional help. Go and see a sport psychologist. Go and see a mentor. Go and see someone that maybe has dealt with this before and someone who's overcome it. Because having that professional help can always just help you as a person.

And sometimes you just need that extra person that's going to be there, even if it's someone that just listens to you or if it's someone pushing you to become a better person. It might just be someone who's more successful than you, and hanging out with that person will help you become more successful as well.

James de Lacey45:36

Now this was a great, great episode, Mona. I guess the topic that isn't, we haven't touched on too much on the Sweet Science podcast in terms of mental skills stuff.

This was a great, great episode, Mona. I guess the topic that we haven't touched on too much on the Sweet Science podcast in terms of mental skills stuff. I think this must be the second episode because we've done two with you regarding this stuff. But if people want to follow you and find you and learn more of your mental skills training and everything, where can they do that?

Mona de Lacey46:01

So on Instagram, you can go and look at my page at Strong by Mona. And then I'm also one of the head coaches at Lift Big Eat Big, so you can go onto our Lift Big Eat Big site. And then I'm also the owner of Helping Psychology, so you can find me in a few places. I'm sure James will link the stuff below, but yeah, the easiest way is probably get hold of me on Instagram. Send me a DM. I always check my outbox and stuff too, so I'll get back to you.

James de Lacey46:26

Also, there'll be a link to Mona's new mental skills newsletter down the description too. So in that, you can sign up for that. We should be sharing a lot of different sports psychology, mental skills, all that kind of stuff straight to your inbox there. But thanks for coming on, Mona. I really appreciate it.

Mona de Lacey46:50

Thank you for having me.