What Separates BJJ Athletes At The Highest Level w/ Black Belt Jahred Dell (SSOF Ep 59)

Jahred Dell3:07

Yeah, so I mean I'll try and paint this context as best as I can without—I mean, I've only been there for 10 days, so it's not like I'm about to lift the lid on any kind of mysteries or anything. But I mean, these dudes are the best in the world, man. You walk in—it was so crazy being able to walk into that training room every day and you're just able to download with some of the best guys in the sport and multi-sport champions as well.

So I think the biggest difference I'd have to say right off the bat is the level of professionalism that the guys bring into their training. A lot of people in New Zealand—well, I would guess any hobbyist gym really, not necessarily just New Zealand—but I think a lot of people come in there training to get their gym taps and win in the training room.

Whereas the thing that I noticed with the attitude that all of the guys bring to their training at New Wave is just that they are 100% there to learn. They're 100% there to work towards failure, and that was—I mean, I'm still decompressing so much of what I tried to learn there—but that was the biggest caliber of difference for me.

Is that these guys weren't going, "I'm only going to drill until I'm feeling a little bit tired when I might be messing up the technique or something." They're going, "I'm going to drill this until I fail. I'm going to try this move until I fail." They're trying to reach that failure parameter so that they can get the most learning out.

And there was just—for everything everybody wants to say about the personalities of professional Jiu-Jitsu—I'm still 100% convinced that if I grabbed any one of those guys in the training room during a training session and I was like, "Hey, what's your name?" they wouldn't be able to tell me because they've just completely blanked their ego and they're just fully engaged in the learning. So that's something that I've really tried to bring back and inform in my own training and coaching.

But beyond that, the New Zealand scene is still very small. We don't have a massive critical mass of people. The sport is burgeoning here. It's certainly growing and it's on that cusp of becoming popular sport. But we have a relatively small population of 4 million people here in the whole of New Zealand. I think that's—isn't that the population of Austin itself? I think Austin's—

James de Lacey5:26

I think Austin's one.

Jahred Dell5:26

Okay, I had to double check that.

So I mean, that's one of the things I found interesting is Austin—I think big city in America—you've actually got the same population as here in Auckland, New Zealand. So it's a relative size similarity and it was the same part, same distance driving around everywhere. Auckland here, so we're in the capital—well, not capital, but the main city of New Zealand—we've kind of got that mass of people. It's certainly where the most people in the country train.

But as you go around the country you see a lot of that old school way of training still. You see the culture personality stuff coming out a lot in a lot of schools, that old tribalistic way of "no crosstrain, don't train in other places." So it's—because I've kind of had the blog and been on social media for quite a while, quite early into Jiu-Jitsu here comparatively to everybody else anyway—but it's been a real pet project of mine to try and break that down.

Because yeah, in a small place like here, if people aren't working together, we're not really going to be able to make that breakthrough onto the world stage at any place. Australia figured that out a while ago, hence why we've got amazing guys like Lachlan and Craig, Devin Moody and all of these guys starting to come up. Is because they've gone, "Hey, well, we actually just need to work together and train together."

And yeah, I feel like if New Zealand can do that—I mean, we punch way above our weight in a lot of other elite sports—but it'll take that kind of move to be able to make the difference.

James de Lacey7:29

Yeah, yeah, nice. And you obviously mentioned about the way that the professionalism that they brought, at least the New Wave crew when you were training with them. I guess how were the sessions structured, as you mentioned there, around drill those techniques, and I guess what are you taking to your own classes from there in terms of teaching techniques?

Jahred Dell7:58

Yeah, so in terms of class structure and things, it wasn't very different to what you'd imagine in most schools, I'd imagine anyway. But you start with technique, you start with drilling. Positional rounds was a big emphasis as well, and then moving into matches or sparring after that.

Which was actually—because, well, I suppose they're not in a camp for anything right now—but that was less of an emphasis, I suppose. It was more the skill acquisition side, and that was really enjoyable. And I mean, when you're doing an hour plus of technique, I mean, you're going to be tired from that alone.

And I think, yes, rolling is the fun part for sure. I think we all love to roll, but I think we're often quite negligent of that skill acquisition part. And it's certainly not like, "Okay, go drill this 100 times or go do 50 reps and then the other person does 50 reps." I think that, putting arbitrary numbers on something is not the point.

But certainly being, from a coaching perspective, the thing that made me think about is to go, "Okay, well, we're going to drill and we're going to acquire skill until everybody's getting this right," or until I'm seeing common mistakes happening and then potentially correct that. So from an education or teaching perspective, it really—there were just small nuances about the way that it's approached that I was like, "Wow, this is—there's a lot of—"

Kind of intangibles that are going on that you have to take back into your own teaching or your own instructional space. And yeah, that was really informing for me and just really encouraging as well that I was like, okay, well, I wasn't super far off in the first place. I'm certainly not, okay, well, we're going to go in line drill and everything forever. I certainly think there's a place for that, but yeah, the best guys in the world are definitely not shrimping up and down the mats for half hour.

James de Lacey10:26

Yeah, I'm with you there in terms of making, I guess, skipping those generic warm-ups and using the technique as the warm-up too. But I guess along the same lines, your top tips then for retaining new techniques? Because I think, as you mentioned, we can drill a new technique in class over and over, but obviously you're presented with the same situation. So as soon as someone starts putting some pressure on or provides a new situation, then that tech doesn't work anymore and you kind of abandon it and almost kind of forget about the technique all together and never use it again.

So I guess, what tips do you have for someone to help retain new techniques and practice them so they actually become usable when they're rolling?

Jahred Dell10:54

Yeah man, I think that's at the crux of what we're doing, right? When it comes to learning and improving. And I think, well, the biggest thing for me is if I've learned, I'm going to go and do it and I'm going to do it in that same session that I learned it. By do it, I mean try it and hopefully fail. The time where you've just learned that technique is the best time to try and hit somebody with it, not just as a coach to actually go, hey, this is the point I'm trying to make, but also from my own training.

If I go and see something—John or my co-coaches here are showing me something—I'm going to go, [expletive], I want to go and hit that right now. I want to go and try that and see what parameters it does work at and what it doesn't work at. Because I think if you don't immediately try and imprint that onto your body and into your mind, you're not really putting an onus on yourself to go out and try that again.

For most people, the average practitioner and the average hobbyist, by the time the next week rolls around they're learning a new technique. I mean, for some, the next class rolls around and they're learning a new technique. Which, I mean, are you even going to remember what you just did?

So I think it's an imperative that you go and try and get that thing to work right away. That depends on how seriously a person is taking their training, like it depends on what they're trying to inform in their own training. But certainly, I think that's a really important step. There's no point just being like, okay, here's a move, I'm doing drill it, and then completely forget about it. Because I mean, then it's never going to work in live training if you're not willing to try it in that session. When are you going to try it?

James de Lacey13:10

Yeah, you see that a lot where at the end of class then it's free rolling and everyone's just back to rolling whatever, but not trying to use that technique, trying to win with the same [expletive].

Jahred Dell13:10

Yeah, or they don't use the technique because not everyone's privy to it because they just did it in class, can defend it. But it's pretty still—that's the most fun part is this person knows what's coming and then you hit them anyway. That's like the biggest F that you can do.

James de Lacey13:33

That's true, that's true. You don't want to be the one on the receiving end getting done by a technique you just learned.

Jahred Dell13:33

And that's where you innovate on your defenses. That's where you have to go, oh damn, I'm actually stuck in the move of the night. I don't want to get hit by this thing, okay, well, how do I defend it? So I mean, it all depends on how much a person wants to trust in the process and actually engage deeply with the material.

It's the same as if I take this to students in a class and I go, I want you to write about a book you've just read, and a kid might just give me the standard blur—this was about this character and this—and I'm like, yeah, okay, cool. But it's the kid that always takes it further that is going to do better and is flexing their brain a bit more. We still using our brain in jiu-jitsu—yes, we're using our body a big amount—but if you've just learned content, if you want to retain it, you got to go and revise. And the rolling is revision for us.

So I feel like people tend to lean back on their strengths because they look at rolling in the wrong way—not always, but I think a large amount of hobbyists are still going, man, okay, cool, I've just slapped and bumped, how am I going to win? They're not going, okay, well, how am I going to get to that move we just learned tonight? How am I going to try that thing out, or how am I going to do something new? How am I going to change my rolling and work on my weaknesses?

James de Lacey15:07

Yeah, those are good points to have so you're not always trying to just dominate and win, I guess, at your strengths when you're going into a roll, and just actually trying or just doing what you're [expletive] at.

Jahred Dell15:07

Yeah, basically. I mean, I don't think that there's anything wrong with trying to win in a roll. I mean, the point of our sport is to try and control and submit somebody. But give yourself parameters with that.

When I roll with a student, I'm not just going to go, okay, well, I'm just going to rack up subs. Yeah, cool, I've been training for 10 years and this guy's been training for 6 weeks—what are either of us getting out of me just going and heel hooking them 25 times in a round? Nothing. So if I go, okay, well, I just showed him an armbar from mount, that's all I'm going to do. And cool, I might hit him with that 20 times—he's certainly going to remember that technique—but then we've both taken something away. Then there's actually an interchange.

And so I think that, I mean, we can't just not win. We can't just not sub a guy. We can't just give up bad positions, because that's an injustice in itself. I think there's nothing worse than rolling with a guy who just isn't trying. That I kind of just want to walk away from that role, and I have.

But I think it's important to try, it's important to try something new, and it's important to give yourself small and measurable goals because I think that's how you improve.

James de Lacey16:28

Nice. And you've competed at a pretty high level too—ADCC trials. What else have you got under your belt there?

Jahred Dell16:28

Yeah, so I competed at ADCC trials last year. I then fought Isaac Michelle in the semis. And then so obviously I didn't qualify—you have to win—he won. But I then went on to Vegas after that to compete in the ADCC open that ran before the ADCC championships. I got to the semis in that as well. I got to the reper charge for bronze as well. So yeah, I've been trying to push—I mean, each time I've been one place better. So I'm hoping the next time we're on the podium.

I mean, ideally, I'd love to be at the top of the podium for the next Oceania Trials. I do believe they're having two more trials—well, they're having two trials rather than just the one Oceania trials this time around. So potentially there's two shots there. And I mean, if I can, yeah, if I can just put myself in contention under 99, I'll be pretty happy, man.

But yeah, what else? I mean, pretty much won everything here in New Zealand a few times over. The competition scene's growing quite a bit here—there's a lot more competitions going on, lots of different rule sets. I've competed in Australia a bunch under Grappling Industries rules.

Especially if you're traveling from New Zealand to Australia, you kind of want to get bang for your buck. And there's a lot of people who kind of want to just bucket list IBJJF comp and get wasted in their first match and pay X amount of hundreds of dollars. But, you know, if I can line up a Grappling Industries competition and I can go, okay, well, I can get upwards of 11 matches, that's great. So I've done, I think, a handful of those—gi, no-gi, absolute and things like that.

I competed in the States as well earlier, in about 2019—pre, feels like forever ago—but competed in California.

At the, what is it, Fuji BJJ Open in Simi Valley up north, which was quite fun. Placed gold in the no-gi division in that and bronze in the gi division. But yeah, I just try to get out there and do it as much as possible. The caliber of competition here in New Zealand isn't super low. I mean, there's still super challenging guys in competitions when you get a good solid bracket or some of the guys come out.

So yeah, just try to put what I've learned into place in competition and try new things. And yeah, it's nice. I never really started the sport with competition in mind to be honest with you, man. When I decided in 2014 that I was going to train every day, I was just like, okay cool, well I just need to regain my health. That was more the thing.

And then competitions kind of came up, and I just realized and kind of embraced that that was part of the learning process. And I'm a pretty competitive person, so I've been able to embrace that side of it. I think a lot of people when they feel that kind of intensity, they either lean into it or push away from it. And I'm certainly one who's kind of leaned into it a bit.

James de Lacey20:31

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That's good. I guess from all these competitions and people you've fought against as well, what are the differentiators at the highest level of jiu-jitsu? In terms of guys who are there at the top versus guys who are maybe just shy of getting there, what kind of separates those two kind of jiu-jitsu athletes?

Jahred Dell20:57

Man, that's a good question. I think if I had to put my finger on one thing, it would be the timing. The lack of hesitation and the knowledge of the pathway that you're going to go down.

I was really fortunate to have a match with Mike Pixley from Pedigo Submission Fighters when I fought at ADCC in Vegas in the open. And the thing that I was just like, I couldn't even be mad that the dude submitted me, bro. I was just so stoked to feel the pathway that he took me down with, so little hesitation along the way and no errors. And I think as soon as I felt that, I was like, holy smokes, I learned so much from just that.

And yeah, so for me that kind of epitomized, I was like, that level is not necessarily about knowing more or about being able to throw [expletive] at a guy that he's never seen before. Because every, you get to blue belt and if you're a competitor, you kind of seen every move. But it's more your mindset, it's how ready you're coming in, it's all of those little intangible things, your confidence and your timing and your willingness to pull the trigger.

I think that those things, I was like, man, okay, well that's what differentiates world class from just everybody else. And yeah, that was a big eye opener and really cool to feel. And yeah, I think I learned more in those two minutes with him than I learned in two years before of competing.

James de Lacey23:10

And I'm assuming, I guess, that willingness to pull the trigger is also down to having the confidence that you can get yourself out of bad positions or things like that too. So you need to, almost it's like you have to have the skill set already to have that confidence to be able to do those things anyway.

Jahred Dell23:10

Yeah bro, I really have to second what you're saying there. I think if your defense isn't sound, and I was just saying this to one of my new students last night, he's three rolls in, and I was like, if your defense isn't sound, you're not going to have that confidence to pull the trigger. That is, in my opinion anyway, your defense, your ability to escape things and to take advantage or to turn around bad positions, is what gives you the confidence to be able to go in and go, as badly as this goes, I'll be okay.

And I still see guys at brown belt and black belt level that are terrified to not be in an advantageous position. Like, oh, if I'm on the bottom, I'm losing. How can you think that way when the sport that we're literally doing was developed so that you've got tools off of your back? That's a thing that blows my mind.

And of course with the prevalence now of ADCC and MMA and that rule set, we're kind of going full cycle to being on top is winning again, which is not wrong. In any self-defense situation and any combat scenario, having the higher ground or being on top is always going to be a more favorable place to be. But what happens when you're not there? That's the big question.

And I think if you don't have the answer to that question, how can you really go into a match, how can you go into a fight, how can you defend yourself with that question in the back of your mind? Probably. And I see that with the same with guys who aren't conditioned well and they roll in a way where they are scared to get tired. And I mean, I love that saying of fatigue makes cowards of us all, but I think the same thing applies with being on the bottom or not having a good guard or not being able to work from those disadvantageous positions.

If you're going, holy [expletive], I'm so scared to be there, how can you honestly say to yourself that you've really engaged deeply with the sport of jiu-jitsu? I don't think that you have. Maybe then you've been a wrestler, that's great, but then you're a great wrestler. But work your guard. You maybe never even need to use it, and that's cool, but you need to have that last word because there's a lot of what-ifs out there and there's a lot of people who are going to put you on your back, and then what do you do?

James de Lacey26:06

Yeah, we've had some great chats on this podcast previously talking about, I guess, constraints-based coaching and basically getting to know all the different situations that you might be put in and training those specific situations that you might be put in so you're actually prepared. And that's just one of them, right? As you mentioned, yeah, sure, you might like to be on top or be the aggressor and be in the dominant positions.

But you can like that, but then when you're training, when you're rolling after class, maybe you start sitting down or on your back or whatever it is, just so you can be in those positions from the very beginning and try to work your way out.

Jahred Dell26:30

Yeah, absolutely, man. I think that was my biggest, that's been one of my biggest immediate takeaways from training in Texas was we do situational every night from bad positions now. I want to get the guys to a point where we can actually just do submission rounds, so the guy starts in an armbar. It takes a while and it takes a level of maturity to do that in a non-professional training room, but we were doing that a lot.

But instead of that, I'm doing back rounds. So you're starting with a guy on your back, and you're in turtle, terrible place to be, literally the worst place to start a roll. Under mount, so mount rounds and back rounds are now non-negotiable. We do that every night with no clock on.

And it's interesting to see because you put six minutes on a clock, right? Everybody knows how much jiu-jitsu they can do in six minutes or how hard they can go in six minutes. You turn the clock off and you don't tell them how long the round's going to be, and you see how they change. And the guy either becomes way more conservative, the guy starts to do things differently, the pace changes, the mindset changes. You start to see who's actually got the conditioning, who's suddenly going to go and prop the wall up and starts [expletive] talking during the rolls and stuff like that.

So yeah, and I think that is another kind of parameter I've put in there. And it's like, are you willing to then push yourself to the point where you're so [expletive] that only your technique's going to work? And the guys that engage in that are just going to fast, get way better way quicker.

James de Lacey28:23

Nice. We have a great class on Friday afternoons at Valhalla Jiu-Jitsu here, and it's basically positional sparring class, one minute...

Jahred Dell28:50

On 10 or 15 seconds off and we just rotate round and we just start back positions, mount, side control, anything that sucks. And it's just for the whole hour like that. It's killer, it's killer, but it's good because you end up starting with someone on your back every minute or every two minutes or someone in mount or someone whatever, and you have to work your way out in that minute. So that's quite nice.

James de Lacey28:50

Now that's awesome. And I think positional rounds are underrated, man. I think you can't do enough of them. It gives you a level of psychological confidence that you don't just get from more rolling. Because you get to a certain level with jiu-jitsu where maybe nobody gets on your back for a long period of time, then you get into a competition match and that's all that this dude wants to do.

Are you really going to have all the answers to the guy who's now just chasing your back? You're not. But if you've been drilling that in the gym, now you're suddenly in a position where you can go, "I don't care if this dude's on my back or in mount because I know I know what to do there."

So I think there's a lot to be said for positional and situational rounds. And yeah, I really hope that people can embrace that really sucky part of it, because it sucks. It's not fun. But people need to learn that that not fun part is actually the fun part.

And I think if people can do the hard stuff more regularly and embrace that, we can kind of get jiu-jitsu back to a place where a jiu-jitsu fighter is actually someone who's feared and tough. Even if you don't have to be a professional, you can be a hobbyist. But man, be a tough hobbyist to kill. And you've got a level of confidence that you can walk around with, protect your family with, but then also be a super super hard roll in the gym.

And then suddenly the competitors are pursuing a roll with you and they want to roll with you, and then you're getting better because you're getting the rub from them. So I think it's just a win-win if people learn to embrace that suck a little bit more.

Jahred Dell30:41

How does a typical training week look for you as someone who works full-time but there also I guess coaching and you still try to prepare for competitions?

James de Lacey31:08

Yeah, so I just train every day, bro, except for Sunday. I finish work in the early afternoon, usually get home, get my stuff together and then go to the gym. And usually my training is from about like 6:00 to about 8:00, so I'll get two hours in. Usually the first hour is me giving instruction and helping everybody else get better. And then I'm pretty much just jumping in on my own class really and training with everybody, practicing and either doing positional rounds and sparring.

I've kind of started to pair back on sparring every night because I have to leave some for my own self. Like my Wednesday and my Saturday are dedicated like my own training. So I don't coach on a Wednesday and a Saturday at the moment. Those are the nights I train. Well, Saturday I don't work, but at midday I'll go and train under one of my coaches and just be the learner. And the same on a Wednesday night.

But yeah, it's a lot to do in a week. I mean, yeah, teaching is very mentally demanding. It's not like a physically demanding job. So the whole battle for me is about preserving as much of my mental energy to train, to coach, and to go through skill acquisition in each session. So yeah, it's always a very fine battle, and it's like really walking a bit of a razor's edge.

But I mean I guess that's just part of the process. I've been teaching for as long as I've been training, and I've been doing them side by side. So I just don't know another way to do it. And then yeah, in the leadup to competitions as well, we'll find two nights a week where I can also do some weightlifting, some strength and conditioning things. But it's always that fine line between finding overtraining and things like that.

I don't use steroids or anything like that. I'm 31 and my body is in relatively good shape. And yeah, I can pride myself on being a natural athlete. So I mean I suppose things would be a whole lot easier if I was on TRT or things like that or doing tren cycles. But for professionals these days, you pretty much have to be doing those things just to make it work. So I certainly don't judge anyone for doing that if that's the choices they wanted to make.

Being a full-time professional athlete in anything has its demands and its sacrifices, and that's pretty much just part of it these days. I think if anybody thinks that jiu-jitsu is the wild west and it's solely jiu-jitsu that has that problem, they're being a bit naive. I mean yeah, it's just literally the life of any professional athlete now. And for me, recovery time is my Sunday. That's a no training day. I don't even teach privates on that day at all. And yeah, I just try to do some active recovery stuff if anything.

Jahred Dell34:52

Nice. So does that mean you don't do strength conditioning training when you don't have a competition? You only do extras when you have a competition upcoming?

James de Lacey34:52

Not strictly, no. I mean it depends if I feel like it or if I have the time, honestly. I certainly will try to maintain that as much as possible and do some baseline things throughout the week, but it can be pretty challenging with a full training load. I certainly don't want to strain my central nervous system beyond the point where I'm not actually going to be improving at jiu-jitsu.

So at the moment, like once a week, I might go in and get some pull-ups, basic push-pull, nothing near PRs or anything like that. Just to work certain areas or certain muscle groups that I feel like, "Okay, that's not hurting right now. Like I can actually push this to a point of near failure, or I can get this muscle group to maybe fire at a level where I can get some gains out of it."

But it's really, yeah, it's a game of inches at this stage. It's not like I'm about to go in and lift and put in a ton of gains out of it, because I mean I've been doing it for years. So it's all about just turning dials and adjusting things and seeing what works out. I used to push it way too hard and lift every day before training. And then I was wondering why I was getting worse at jiu-jitsu. I mean, of course strength plays an element.

But I'm a full-time teacher, I lift two times a week, and I certainly still don't feel outgunned strength-wise by some of the best guys. So I don't think there's something to be said for strength and conditioning, but there's a lot of people who want to double down on it rather than doing jiu-jitsu. And it's like if you want to get better at jiu-jitsu, lifting weights isn't always going to help you. Like sometimes the more optimal way to get better at jiu-jitsu is to do more jiu-jitsu.

So I always try to just make sure that I'm saving my bandwidth and my body's bandwidth to do that as much as possible and as optimally as possible.

Jahred Dell37:28

Did you know you can represent Sweet Science of Fighting while you're training? We're more than just a membership, we also have rash guards and shorts. If you're watching this on YouTube, you'll see that we have the Sweet Science of Fighting 2.0 shorts and we also have the Sweet Science of Fighting short and long sleeve rash guard. There's another design coming soon, but you can get those on XMartial.com and you can go down the description and you can find that. And back to the podcast.

I'm with you on that too in terms of, yeah, some people just like to double down and hit the gym, get big, go get stronger, and that's going to be their saving grace. But I mean, as you mentioned, there's guys that are just grappling strong and you get on the mats with them, you're like, "What the hell?" You haven't felt this before. They probably might not be stronger than you in the gym, but on the mats you feel that pressure and it's another level.

James de Lacey38:25

100% man. I mean, I certainly, I think I certainly fit

Jahred Dell38:49

I think I certainly fit into that camp. I've gone and lifted with a few of my mates who, their PB squat or their PB deadlift is way higher than where mine is right now. But when I get my hands on them, I'm going to melt them with that isometric strength that you've built up from a decade of consistent training. And I certainly don't want to put myself into a deficit where the lifting means that I'm now either having to miss trainings or things like that.

Because cool, if my goal is just to be healthy and look good and things like that, then absolutely lifting has a huge place in that. And maybe doing less Jiu-Jitsu is actually better if that's your goal. But for me, I just want to get really good at the sport, man. So I'm just going to keep doing that, and if I can find some S&C in between to help me out, then absolutely. But I try to make the Jiu-Jitsu the first priority when it comes to getting better at Jiu-Jitsu. Who would have thought? Groundbreaking.

James de Lacey39:45

I was rolling with the Tackett brothers the other last week—no, week before—and man, just even just that pressure from those guys is like another level. I was like, [expletive]. And as you mentioned, it's like, it might not be stronger, but on the mats... yeah, I was [expletive] out to a couple of rounds of that, man.

Jahred Dell40:14

I've seen how they've rolled. I mean, I was fortunate enough to watch them at the open as well. I think Andrew Tackett won the absolute as well at the Vegas Open. And man, just the... yeah, those guys' work ethic is crazy. It's awesome to watch.

James de Lacey40:42

Definitely. I would have a heart attack though. I'm firmly a heavyweight. If I rolled like that, I'd [expletive] die. Less dynamic, like what do they call, Panda Jiu-Jitsu or something?

Jahred Dell40:42

Yeah, something along those lines. Gorilla Jiu-Jitsu.

James de Lacey40:42

So how do you see the future of professional Jiu-Jitsu going? Obviously now there's a little more prize money coming into it. ADCC is becoming a lot more popular. It's kind of more seen as the pinnacle of Jiu-Jitsu now. Nogi's kind of taken over, like even here in Austin, there's super fights every damn weekend. I've competed in a couple of super fights here, and it's free, which is damn cool.

So I don't mind competing those and not paying. But where do you see professional Jiu-Jitsu going in the future in terms of prize money, professionalism? Will people start being able to train full-time? Will there be funding for that kind of stuff?

Jahred Dell41:35

Man, it's an interesting one, right? Because there's so many dynamics to put into that that it's quite hard to... I mean, the crystal ball still seems a little bit murky on it. There's so many different federations and organizations and stuff now that I think the sport element of Jiu-Jitsu is pretty much maxed out. We're at a terminal mass of competitions.

And one thing that I've started to realize recently, especially since we've started putting on our own kind of promotion, the Future Cup at the gym, which isn't... we're not running another competition. It's a spectator spectacle. I'm just doing five super fights in a night, so real dynamic, real... And we're charging people on the door, so it's entertainment, right? Versus going to a competition on a weekend and seeing brackets and all of that stuff and multiple... a guy doing multiple matches.

It seems like the path's diverging a lot between those two. I mean, I think that's the most objective observation that I can really make about it. I think that each has its own place. A lot of guys are still going to establish their name and actually get better at Jiu-Jitsu by engaging with that sport side. So I think that that's probably always going to be there.

I think we're well beyond the reality that this would ever become an Olympic sport now. I just don't really see a pathway to that happening. Our biggest organizations, ADCC and IBJJF, are both profit-driven organizations. I think the first criteria for an Olympic sport is that it has to be a nonprofit for a start. Like, a federation has to be a nonprofit. So I don't think we even get past that.

I honestly think that that would hurt the sport more than anything anyway, so it's neither here nor there. But the way that the sport element's established now, whatever rule set we want to call it—SJJF, IJCB, whatever—I think there's a certain critical mass to that now. There'll always be merit to winning that, and I think that it draws attention to people who are successful athletes and successful competitors. And that might help them skyrocket towards that more professional level where now they're getting on to things like a Who's Number One card or getting super fights at local competitions or local promotions.

And there certainly seems to be a larger capacity now for people to actually make money from Jiu-Jitsu, whether that's instructing, putting out instructionals, creating content. I mean, that has its positives and it has its negatives. I mean, I think there's a lot of [expletive] out there, for sure, to say the least.

But through all of that, there does seem to be those kind of guys who have found a strong niche but are also putting out really sound technique. They're putting out sound advice for people, they're putting out great content. And I think that that's the most awesome side to see, even away from professional competition or whatever, is that there's people who can now create content that can also go full-time. Because that adds another element to the sport as well.

I mean, if you look at professional wrestling or you look at the UFC, there are fleets of people who make a living off of commenting off of the sport. There's people who do analysis, there's people who do all of that. And I think that now that we're getting that second layer deep in Jiu-Jitsu, I think that that's only positive for the growth of the sport. Because you need more people talking about it.

We don't need more people doing it because that's kind of a vacuum. You can have 3,000 members at a gym, and if none of them are talking about it, it's not going to become something that's in the popular consciousness. So we need people that can bridge that gap. We need people who can communicate, we need content creators, we need people who can get on the mic at events and do commentary and things like that to actually translate this very niche sport to an audience of people who may not actually be deeply invested or they might be casual observers.

If we think about pro wrestling, man, that's a [expletive] niche sport, but it's massive. How did they bridge that? They didn't bridge it by doing more of it. They bridged it by communicating it better, by packaging a product better, and by making it digestible for the casual person to watch and be entertained by. I think Jiu-Jitsu has the same capacity.

And I think that something like an ADCC rule set is potentially the rule set that's helping that to happen the most at the moment. I mean, everything has its place. A while ago it would have been EBI rules, I think, helped to increase popularity a lot, until we saw people bringing in sports element of trying to gamify the rule set and things. EBI rules has a lot of capacity to be gamed. Okay, well, I'm going to just turtle the whole round. [expletive] wants to watch that, bro.

So now we've got Combat Jiu-Jitsu and seeing how popular that's getting. I think that, honestly, that's a better move away than going back to full EBI rules or submission only. Because those are great if you do the sport. But how do we get... how do I get my parents to sit down and watch a 45-minute sub-only match? Jesus Christ. No one's going to want to watch that, man.

So I feel like making the product digestible for people is a huge part. If I can put on five matches that are under ADCC rule set and I can say to an audience of people who've just come to support someone because they know them and they've paid 35 bucks at the door, I'm going to be like, this is an electrifying rule set. It's entertaining. The person on top is the one that's winning. The submission finishes the fight. Action... you're going to see takedowns, you're going to see big moves.

The audience is going to go, "Oh, okay, cool. I get that." I don't need to know any technical terms or anything. I just need to know that this person who is dominating is winning. So I feel like...

That's obviously making a big play for the public consciousness, if you want to call it that, and making the sport break through.

James de Lacey49:00

Really. I mean, if you think about the UFC, like how many people watch the UFC that don't train any combat sports? Exactly. And that's kind of the big money maker, and it's kind of... it's hard for Jiu-Jitsu though, just because as you mentioned, it's harder to understand for the general person. And I guess if someone's not into grappling, it's not... I guess you'd say it's not that exciting from someone from the outside looking at two dudes hugging each other for 10 minutes and doing some weird things with legs.

Jahred Dell49:27

And we've had things like Quintet and other invitationals on the UFC Fight Pass that have tried to bridge the gap. I don't know how popular they've been. I don't know the numbers on what the engagement with those was like.

I think it would have been very interesting to see what happened with ADCC Trials and the championship being televised on Fight Pass, but I guess we'll never know. But the flow grappling and the UFC Fight Pass deal, I think, also kind of signifies a place in where the sport's going to go. It certainly feels like grappling is certainly more... you're kind of going to be involved in the sport to buy a flow grappling pass. So it'll be interesting to see how that kind of develops.

Having been in Vegas for the actual ADCC championships, I mean, man, that place was packed. So from a spectator perspective, even if we can get 10,000 Jiu-Jitsu people into an arena, that's pretty cool. I think there are enough people that practice that have skin in the game that will want to actually come and watch and make this thing a spectator sport. I certainly don't think it's impossible, but if we want this sport to actually skyrocket and be the next football, we need to find a way to bridge that for casuals or people who just don't train.

James de Lacey51:02

Exactly. No, this has been a great chat, Jahred. If people want to find you and follow you and see what you're doing and follow you for your next competition, where can they do that?

Jahred Dell51:02

Best place to do that is probably on Instagram, Articulate BJJ. I've got a YouTube page, and everything's by the same name, so everything's Articulate BJJ. I've got some podcast episodes on Spotify and things where I discuss some of the things that we've talked about today but also some other kind of conceptual things. But yeah, Facebook, Instagram, usually the go-to there. So yeah, that's pretty much where people could find me.

James de Lacey51:30

Perfect. And I'll link all those up in the description too when this gets published soon. But thanks for coming on, Jahred. I really appreciate it.

Jahred Dell52:05

Awesome, bro. Thanks so much for having me, man. Great chat.