Chinese Olympic Boxing Strength & Conditioning Secrets w/ Dorian Grenier (SSOF Ep 187)

Dorian Grenier0:00

It's a little province in the southeast of the country. So you're really in the middle of nowhere and which is nice because the facilities themselves they were pretty decent. You would have a full full-size Olympic swimming pools, for like 400 m track.

You would have a bunch of different sports, anything from shooting to weightlifting to mid-long distance running, boxing, wrestling, fencing, a lot of different sports. And eventually after like a year maybe year and a half of kind of figuring things out, how things go there.

I eventually got the role of on the combat sports campus. So I was mostly responsible for the wrestlers, the fencers and the boxers pretty much from the first year and this has been the team that I've been with pretty consistently for about 6-6 and 1/2 years. And yeah, so that's the short version of where I'm now. If I had to sum it up.

James de Lacey4:10

Do you all live on site?

Dorian Grenier4:10

Yeah. So it's a pretty sweet setup. You basically have kind of a hotel, the athletes would have dorms, right? If you're more higher, a high-level athlete, then maybe you only have to share with maybe one other athlete or if you have a proven track record, maybe you have your own room even.

But so there would be dormitories and then for the coaches, in my case it was a hotel more or less. So you would live in a hotel. There's a cafeteria on site. So you would have meals provided, right? Three warm meals if you want, breakfast, lunch, dinner.

It's pretty much there with a lot of choices. A lot of times 10 to 12 different dishes if you want to eat something different and then obviously if it's not to your taste especially as a Westerner or you're not used to kind of food in the beginning, you can always go out and get your own stuff.

Yeah, so most of the people, you would stay on base because downtown, there's just not the space for those kind of facilities. So that's why you're usually in remote locations.

James de Lacey5:07

Yeah, some of those are pretty sweet, even for our younger coaches who are looking for roles. You get paid, depending on what it is not kind of well, but you have all your accommodation covered, you have your food covered, you have nothing, you have no expenses.

Which makes it quite good and if you're in on the job and you're focused on this and this is what you love, there's nothing better cuz all you're doing is just coaching.

Dorian Grenier5:36

Exactly. And obviously immersing, I guess you also have to be open to immerse yourself in a new culture, learning kind of how things work, how things don't work because a lot of things that you might be used to, that's not how things are run here, right? So let's put it that way.

James de Lacey6:01

Yeah, for sure. So let's go into it then. So you had man, you spent a lot of time with I guess some of these combat sports with wrestling, boxing and maybe even fencing over the years.

So we'll be interesting to kind of just go just generally down your kind of philosophy or training philosophy for these sports. I know it's a very general question, but just kind of how you see preparation for these sports and how it fits together.

Dorian Grenier6:28

Right. In the beginning there was a lot of going to practices and talking to the coaches trying to figure out what the sport is about, right? I think it's a good starting point for any S&C coach, really trying to understand what do athletes do day in day out. And since you're already on campus there were a lot of opportunities to do that which I took full advantage of, right?

So I would go in and see okay, what is this technical coach doing with a fencing practice and then obviously you start to dig into the research as well. Okay, for fencing what are some of the common injury sites? A lot of hamstring pulls, ankle injuries, right?

So how can you basically step in and provide value pretty much right away because you're addressing some of the things that maybe the coaches themselves mention or that you're able to draw from the research. I just took fencing as one general example there, but the process is pretty much similar for all of the other sports as well.

Right? And then once you start having a little bit of a routine then it really comes down to understanding how athletes are expected to work in the system and how they're, I guess how you can best support them, right?

It's very different in let's say let's just pick an example boxing practice in the morning. It starts by athletes having to literally line up kind of the military and then head coach stands in front, says this is what's going to happen.

We're going to do X, Y and Z today and these are the goals for the sessions and whatnot. So it's very regimented, right? And you have, I guess for the athletes that had success in the past that have proven themselves, they do have a seniority position within the team. And usually within those teams you as the S&C you get the heads up pretty much right away.

Hey, on this team maybe we have 20 to 30 athletes, but really we want you to focus on these five because those are the ones that can get, that have medal potential that can actually win things whether it be at the national championships at international competitions, Olympic whatever the case may be, right?

So and these are the ones that can actually help the training base secure the funding kind of for the next four-year cycle as well. So pretty much you get an idea of what to focus on and where to put your priorities. I don't know if that's a very general explanation.

James de Lacey9:10

I've got follow-up questions for you. So don't you worry about that. Where I'm going to start with this one though. You mentioned obviously focusing on the top five versus the other 25 or so.

How what does it actually look like in practice because I can't imagine just trying to be ignore the other 25. Here's your program and then just watch the other five. How does that work?

Dorian Grenier9:25

Yeah, it's a good question and I asked myself that question many times in the beginning because I was well am I just going to see the five athletes that you mentioned in my sessions?

And no, no, we're all going to show up, right? And then you have 30 athletes, but really your programming or your focus should really be on those five. So what that looks like in practice I guess, is I would have a very kind of a general theme for the day that I would create for the entire team in terms of the program.

All right, let's say most teams maybe I would see them three times a week for 2 hours. And then potentially if I do have the time also during practice scenarios if there's something else that we're going to do or the coach wants to do extra endurance sessions where we go out on the track.

So, maybe I'm there with them as well. All right, but that would depend on obviously my availability. Like if my attention was split up between different teams or if I was just with one team which was the case for example with my boxers in the last 2 and a half years like leading after the national games.

But to come back to your question I would put a lot more time in building up the relationship with those five athletes. Like whether it be having meetings. Sometimes it would just something short maybe 5 to 10 minutes either after our sessions or before our sessions or the coach would also organize sometimes an additional training day where it would only be the key athletes that would come in sort of like for an extra session.

If the athletes requested it or if they were on board with it, right? There were certain issues like for instance we had one guy dealing with a shoulder injury. And especially in boxing like if you can't throw a left hook it's kind of a problem, right?

So with him we did a lot of extra kind of rehab. Sometimes he would even miss out on technical training sessions. But he was technically already I don't want to say it like you can obviously always improve, but he was one of the best like technical boxers on the team.

So for him it was more of an issue to hey, we got to get you back in fighting shape so you can actually use all the weapons at your disposal, right? So I guess the individualization piece like with those kind of key athletes you could call them.

That only happened once the coach or the head coach was on board and giving the green light to go ahead with the training that I had planned. I don't know if that answers it, but yeah.

James de Lacey12:07

Do you think there's I don't know maybe it's just so ingrained in that culture, but what do you think that the other fighters maybe feel favoritism towards those ones? And does that have a negative effect or is that kind of just like that's the culture there and they can understand?

Dorian Grenier12:30

It can have a negative effect. Like on the taekwondo team that was certainly the case. I also worked with that team only for like a year, year and a half maybe.

And for sure this kind of favoritism if the team culture itself isn't the greatest meaning certain athletes don't enjoy showing up for training or like you can tell. I think most people can tell especially if you've been involved in team sports.

Like when you walk into a locker room or are people joking? Are they having fun teasing one another? Like those kind of things like what's the general vibe? And luckily within the boxing team it was a really really good culture.

Probably the best one on campus. And I don't want to say it's directly related, but I'm sure it played a role in that they were also the most successful teams in terms of medals and accolades and whatnot. All right, so the whole team culture piece was I think huge.

And as long as that's in place even then sure like athletes can feel it, right? If the coach pays more attention on someone else rather than you, but they also understand like if these five athletes are actually technically better, physically better.

Like they understand that they still have room to make up or I guess to climb the mountain and they like when I was watching like whether it be sparring or just general practices with the boxing team the older athletes that had that seniority they would really like try their best to bring up the other ones to actually help them improve like whether it be in partner drills or like trying to teach like you could see those things. So I think that really helped mitigate what could have been a detrimental like in terms of making progress.

James de Lacey14:22

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Yeah, for sure. And I guess further on that kind of culture piece that seems to you mentioned like how regimented it was was kind of on lining up almost like military style with the coach saying what to do.

I guess in other countries as well that are maybe have that kind of communist history through some of those Soviet countries kind of have that similar culture in place where it's kind of being told what to do. It'll be interesting to hear your thoughts kind of on that versus what at least in my opinion play and free play and expression to me is what makes the best athletes.

And you kind of see that around different sports. If you just even think of like some of the most I guess famous athletes. You talk about like Diego Maradona. You can talk about even like Conor McGregor like the way they kind of freely move and do things.

And I mean Conor's kind of both sides of the argument here. But you kind of get my idea there. So to me like allowing that free expression everything is kind of what really helps athletes develop and come into their own style of stuff.

This is this kind of like regimented tell you what to do. I guess it'd be interesting to know kind of like how did you find that aspect of working with these athletes? Did you implement anything to try and get them to kind of play and be freely expressed? Is that something that they could do? Maybe just kind of run through that.

Dorian Grenier16:41

Yeah, no that's a good question. I would say in general like especially in the beginning, right? When you're not used to it the vibe that you get right away is that most of the sports where especially in this case the Chinese system is very successful are more the individual sports where you can really drill and get repetitions in like whether it be diving, gymnastics, ping pong.

Like the kind of sports where you can like drill a lot for lack of a better word. And make loads of progress. Other sports like especially I would say more team sports that require more creativity. Like don't get me wrong the Chinese like they love football or soccer, basketball like all those things, but at least internationally they're not on a level where they want to be, right?

Just to put it that way. So I do think the whole like being creative like as you mentioned like the creativity part that's something that they could probably benefit a lot from, but again I don't know if that's a if that is strictly imposed by the culture if it's something that's kind of ingrained in the athletes like having the respect for authority like not wanting to like even if something is up like they're not going to be disrespectful and get let's say in the coach's face or speak up if they're if something is bothering them.

So I think it can definitely play a role for sure. And I thought there was something else I wanted to touch on can you repeat the second part of your question maybe?

James de Lacey18:31

Did you implement anything? That would be more

Dorian Grenier18:33

right right. That's right. Yeah, so one of the things that I tried especially after my first year or so was trying to break sometimes monotony in training with different kind of games activities sometimes partner based whether it be outside like just shake things up, right?

Like you would have especially like in Chinese culture it's very common that you would go for a two to two and a half hour nap in the middle of the day. Like you basically have your lunch, all right? And then people they just go to the dormitories and they crash for a two to two and a half hours.

And then they would show up at your session. And some of them like literally having woken up 5 minutes ago. And then they come to see you. So it's kind of difficult to amp them up for an intense training session if you do have them in the afternoon and that's the case.

So I tried a lot of different things where you cannot hide necessarily like those could have been like games involving a little bit more cognitive things. And especially if they're not from a like a ball sport for example.

And you have things where you need to catch, chase, run, change direction, all of those kind of things. And obviously you would scale the, you would not do something super intense right away, but kind of building them up into a warm-up where they actually have to engage and wake up in a sense.

I found that that really helped kind of set the tone for the training session and also challenge them in a different way. Sometimes we would do gymnastic stuff for warm-up, partner wheelbarrow walks or things where maybe you also have a little bit of general physical benefits from, but you would get them moving. And people would laugh, you would crack jokes. Just basically do something to kind of break up the sleep that they just came from.

James de Lacey20:34

There's nothing better than playing games. And I play kids games. And because athletes are just big kids. And what they just laugh through everything is just so, it sets the perfect tone for the session that you just can't get from anything else.

And it's, if you guys are interested actually I wrote a whole article on LinkedIn going through my whole game philosophy and game examples and all that kind of stuff. So if you guys are interested you go check that out too, but it's funny enough when you talk about the regimented play stuff because if we look at kind of self-learning self-organization, we want the athlete to figure it out for themselves, which becomes very hard in a regimented environment because they're told what to do and they don't have to, well quote unquote don't have to think.

Was that, is that something that maybe you had to deal with too? Like for example maybe even if you're somewhat involved, I don't know, S&C technical training whatever and being, you know, what should you do in the situation or what happened here and what could you do to change it? That kind of thing. Is that something that would ever be kind of lamented from coaches or yourself or anything? Or is that kind of, "Hey, the whole culture is you get told what to do in this situation etc. etc."?

Dorian Grenier21:59

I'd say it also depends a lot on the athletes in question. And maybe give you an example. There would be, especially on the boxing team, I would say, one of my girls who was, I think in 2023, she became world champion for the first time and then obviously very successful athlete, but she was the kind of athlete that after practice was done, she would stick around and kind of try out things with a training partner.

Whether it be working on combinations or having discussions about, "Okay, what about here, footwork or whatnot." And you could see that especially in her case, the learning was what actually causes her to stay engaged.

And most, again, not all. There were other examples where they're just naturally talented enough to kind of get by. And you have those as well, but I think really comes down to the athlete in question. And because even within a system like that, you would have a bunch of those too that were actually curious that try to, they're, and sometimes they would disagree.

They would disagree with something that the head coach would want them to do. But they would still do it and then say, "Well, but when I go out and fight and it's just myself, I might not use that. I might use a technique or a specific tactic that suits me better or that I think works better for me." And this is what they would tell me, I don't want to say behind their back, but it's because, yeah, it's walking a fine line, not trying to offend anyone, but still kind of developing I guess your own style, you could say.

James de Lacey23:49

I don't know. That makes sense. And it's good, as you mentioned, when I talk to you about it, it's funny because it's almost the S&C role is, I guess it kind of always was, but more blending towards a blended assistant coach S&C.

You have to have an understanding of the sport because players will talk to you about things that they won't talk to the head coach about for various reasons. And if you really understand the sport, you become somewhat of a, you kind of got to be there anyway because if you're designing stuff that's going to directly impact I guess their performance, you're kind of doing a lot of stuff. You're trying to manipulate things within the sport as well. So you're working with the head coach on a lot of things.

Dorian Grenier24:36

I guess maybe just add on that because I think our role is not necessarily to replace skill acquisition. That would be crazy, but it's to expand the athletes' capacity to express their skill. That's what I believe anyways. So in a way I think all of the things that I'm doing with my athletes, I just want them to be able to express their skills in their sport at a high level. And that's kind of how I look at it.

And also trying to make, I know it sounds weird, but trying to make myself redundant in a way. If let's say, and especially if maybe more so with the higher level athletes, if let's say we see them throughout most of the year, but then they're being called up to the national team and they got to go out and have a, I don't know. Now the Asian championships they just concluded in Mongolia, they're maybe out there for two, three months at a time.

Teaching them enough skills or habits, those kind of things that they're self-sufficient when they're not with you. That's kind of how I look at my role for the most part. And then obviously, the ones that are at a much lower level more general anyways.

James de Lacey25:51

And then you got alongside that designing stuff with the coaches as well. Even with the rugby world we'll sit together. If I want to see an outcome out of a drill, but I need the coaches to design the actual drill that's technically sound enough for the players to execute, but then it also gives me what I want.

A very simple example is agility based stuff because it's so tied into the sport where it's maybe they want to do some kind of counter attack drill or they want to do some kind of three on two or whatever. So I say, "Perfect. I want the grid to be rather because I need them to run more or I need whatever it is, there's so much that you can do together that just plays such an important relationship and connection for the sport.

Whereas the scene is so rigid, so siloed usually where it's you go do your S&C then you go do your technical and it's like it doesn't work like that.

Dorian Grenier26:41

No. And you really you can't really separate the two. So that, and this is one thing I started to appreciate more and more especially, you have to imagine those athletes, it's their job. It's unlike very many situations, even in, whether it be the US or somewhere else, usually athletes either have college classes in college or in Europe a lot of times you maybe you need to have another job or a second job even to support yourself because it's not very well funded from the government, even if you're at a pretty high level already.

But these athletes, their job is to train two to three times a day. Most mostly twice a day. Monday through Saturday and then Sunday is the rest day. You have to, and they again, some of them they treat it like a job, which can also backfire. Then it's more like I just show up because I need to. And then others they're actually taking advantage of it. So if you're more on the latter, then you can really make something happen. You can do something.

But if, there is a lot of athletes also that I don't want to say get burned, but you lose them because it's very easy to get lost in that system.

James de Lacey27:58

For sure. I want to go into a little bit of the nitty-gritty. You were boxing and wrestling and fencing as well, but we can start with boxing and wrestling to make it easier. What are some of the differences maybe you noticed? Maybe in terms of the athletes themselves or whether it be the physiology, the makeup, whatever it is that influence maybe your programming for them? Similar or different or how they kind of look between the two different sports?

Dorian Grenier28:37

The wrestlers, they would have a lot more what you would call traditional strength focused work. And anything from, you know, you could the backs, really heavy back squats or high pulls just from just from below the knee. Those kind of things that you would imagine to see in a wrestler's S&C program. Big traps, big back, not being able to get thrown around basically. You need the heavy strength element in there.

And the athletes also communicate to you, right? If you say, "Well, you're doing a lot of speed or more high velocity kind of power training," they're like, "Yeah, but I don't really feel like it's getting me what I need." In a way they enjoy suffering a lot more than the boxers, right?

And they would kill themselves. I would watch wrestling practice where they go through shark tank sessions and it's absolutely brutal. So I think it's a little bit of a mindset that these athletes have that kind of influences how they like to train.

And also culturally, what is expected as they go through that system. As a wrestler you have to almost enjoy the suffering and the hard work. So in some way I would cater to that, right? And then obviously sprinkling things where I feel like that's not just hard work for the sake of doing hard work, but it's actually going to give you results in terms of your physiology, whether that be specific interval endurance sessions.

Instead of just running 5K, I don't know how many times a week, we would do kind of pyramid interval sessions on the track, going from shorter to longer and then longer to shorter distance, or just start from like an 800 meter to a 400 then down to a 200.

Have a couple 50 meter sprint. Although I have to say a lot of the sprint work, this is maybe just I'm going off a tangent here, but I tried in the beginning to stay away from it, especially full speed running for shorter distances, because a lot of them they move very poorly especially at high velocities. So your injury risk for hamstrings and all that kind of stuff goes up.

But then what happened is the Chinese Athletic Association or Sports Association, who is kind of responsible for sports as a whole, they introduced general physical tests that athletes have to pass in order to qualify for certain competitions. All right, and to give you a for instance, at the national games last year for the boxing team in a couple years prior there were I think 10 tests in total and you had each test would give you 10 points.

And then out of 100 you have to get at least I think 65 or whatever, and then there would be things such as a 30 meter sprint and pull-ups and a bunch of different stuff.

And eventually now they started to, I don't want to say individualize it, but kind of cut it down for the different sports. So for boxing it was you had double unders, two minute double unders rope skipping. I think you had to get for the full score I think was 260 reps, which if you can do that you're pretty damn good at doing double unders.

So that was one test. We had a 30 meter electronically timed sprint and 30 second maximum pull-ups for reps. And then the last one, what was it? What was that last one again? Rope skip, pull-ups, oh 3000, 3K, right, a 3K. Yeah, so and then based on those four I think was 26 out of 40, so similar scoring system, right?

So you had to get at least 65% to pass. And then if you do not, you cannot qualify to get into the top 16, which is a problem, especially if you are, if your skill is already on that level and you've been there and you actually have the ability to do it, but physically you just can't handle it.

Then well, you're out of luck. So that's why a lot of, I don't want to say a lot but quite a bit of the kind of incentives or programming was also a little bit geared towards that. So it's not just getting the athletes ready for their sports, whether it be boxing, wrestling or whatever, but also, hey, once we do get there can you pass those tests?

And just to give you an idea, the sprint times for the 30 meter was I think the full score was a 3.9 seconds, which if you're like, you're flying, you're pretty damn fast, especially if it's not timed per hand, right? The 3K I think was a little bit more manageable, especially for the guys, and you would also have slight differences between males, females obviously, and then the weight classes they would have slightly adjusted scoring systems for that.

But then I think the 3K was I think a 11 minute, no no, 10, 10:30 I think. 10:30, something like that. And the pull-ups was 30 reps for the guys, 15 reps for the girls. And 30 reps is, especially if you're doing strict pull-ups, is one rep a second.

It's a lot, right? And also doing it strict. There was a little bit of leniency sometimes in how those tests were being done, but that's a whole other debate. But long story short, it was not just getting the athletes prepared for their sport, but then on top of it you have the physical element that was required by the test.

And obviously that the last thing you want, if you're the S&C coach, is to any of your athletes not being able to participate in the competition because physically they couldn't handle it, right? So quickly became one really big constraint that you kind of have to adjust your programming around.

James de Lacey35:11

What's your opinion on the use of these tests? You think it's a positive, negative, or just kind of a neutral?

Dorian Grenier35:33

I think I'm leaning towards the side of it being positive if done correctly. And what I mean by that, for us we, I don't want to say sacrificed a lot, but we certainly invested some of our time and energy into areas that could have been spent more on getting them specifically ready for boxing.

All right. So once we arrive there and we got to the test, finally, you could have, I was very strict with it because in the end you never know how are they actually going to implement those tests? Are they going to be, I had a 1 meter by 1 meter start box for the 30 meter, every single time from a dead stop, full acceleration, those kind of things.

And obviously you have to practice that, you have to do actual speed training to kind of get athletes to that level. And then you arrive there on testing day and you have a 2, 3 meter run in, and all of a sudden it's like, well okay, everybody's smashing it and it's not really a test after all. So you kind of feel like you wasted your time a little bit.

So I think the idea or the thought behind it is not a bad one, because it ensures that your athletes have a certain level of general physical preparedness that's probably allowing them to be a little bit more robust, a little bit more resilient, because they're literally not just doing their sport all the time, right? Because overuse injuries, those kind of things. So I'd say net probably on the positive side, but there's a lot of room for improvement of how it's actually being done in practice.

James de Lacey37:17

Interesting, interesting. You went through the conditioning mentorship recently with Don. I'm interested to know how or if that potentially impacted maybe your conditioning philosophy and how you prescribe conditioning, and if it changed much at all. And kind of maybe if it shifted how you're looking at conditioning for boxing and wrestling.

Dorian Grenier37:42

Oh, for sure, for sure. It had a, already even before signing up for the mentorship, I was thinking or kind of going through some of the material that either was out there on podcasts or those kind of things. So I followed you guys a while before that and always wanted to know a little bit more and how I could potentially change things what I do in practice. So that's one of the reasons I signed up for it.

And then once, after kind of working through the material and everything, I would say one of the biggest changes for me was the whole recovery bit. Because it's almost counterintuitive, basically cutting down certain rest periods to actually force the body to recover better and utilize oxygen, extracting oxygen more efficiently in the muscle, right?

That was one of the things where I was like, oh okay, I kind of had that backwards or I didn't really understand how to work out my work to rest ratios in the different things that I would do.

And then also for the other stuff, obviously in the mentorship a lot of it was on bike sprints, but it got me thinking on, for example, the interval training that I do and how that should probably be changed somewhat. Or I would have, sometimes you don't have access to bikes or you have a very large training group and everyone kind of needs to be taken care of.

So then basically doing 50 meter shuttle sprints with specific timing and how to manipulate that so you get the desired adaptation, or at least in theory, because I didn't have Moxy technology to actually look at what's happening at the muscle, but at least the thought or the theory behind it would be in line with what I'm trying to get, right?

James de Lacey39:43

Yeah, I think the recovery aspect is probably the most, let's just say, profound changes that most people come through because you get told recovery's an aerobic process, you know, it is an aerobic process. So you automatically go, alright, I need to go do my zone two cardio and whatever VO2 max interval, whatever it is, because I need to improve my aerobic ability, get my aerobic base up and then I'm going to recover better.

And then you realize, oh, okay, that's probably not the answer because now we're actually not addressing what's happening at the muscular level, at least not well. And then you start to realize, oh, just because something's hard doesn't mean it's not an aerobic activity.

You get stuck in these little buckets and it's kind of, I wouldn't say it's the fault of any practitioners. We've all thought this way. It's just that's the information that is presented. If anyone's listening and they've gone through and seen any condition information on Instagram, YouTube, energy system stuff, it'll all be broken down the exact same way.

Then you do aerobic work, then you do, and it'll just be that. Exactly the same everywhere. Not understanding what is actually happening under the hood and that's kind of, yeah, that becomes a really big change and kind of how you think about conditioning.

Dorian Grenier40:53

Totally. And I would say the other thing too is getting a better understanding of what is actually happening in practice, whether it be during sparring. Once you start to look at heart rate data, for example, in my case that was a big one, going through camp and actually having a look through, okay, what is happening?

Is it a fast recovery? Is it a slow recovery? What's the quality actually look like of that athlete's heart rate? And then based off of that making certain changes in terms of programming because for me it was always, okay, I can do any test that you can imagine but if it's not going to actually change what I prescribe or what I do, I don't want to just collect data for the sake of it, right?

So actually looking at that and then obviously you would look at heart rate data, let's say on the bike sprint as well, but then having that piece where now it starts to make sense. You can start to piece things together of what's happening in the sport. I think for me that was also a big shift.

James de Lacey42:02

What would be an example of seeing say maybe some heart rate data within sparring and then or even on some of the sprints as well and then changing the programming or something for that athlete?

Dorian Grenier42:19

There was one instance where we were probably three weeks out, three weeks out from a very important fight still, and we probably had about maybe six, seven sessions left where we could actually make a change or impact what was going on. And that athlete was struggling pretty much every time after the second round of sparring. You could see there was a lot of carry on effect from the previous two rounds and started with a higher baseline.

So basically recovery was, for the third round, and this is where a lot of times athletes in the past used to lose or maybe not do quite as well in the last round.

So it was something that needed to be addressed. So what I tried based off that was especially in the bike sprints that we had left, because the last week or so before the competition, I didn't want to have too many of those in there because the weight cuts and athletes already feel pretty terrible during that time.

So we probably had about two weeks to really get something going and I would gradually reduce some of the rest intervals. In the beginning maybe we had six seconds on, 18 seconds off, something like that. And eventually I think on the last two sessions we had it, not completely flipped, but we had six seconds, and so, sorry, 15 on and six seconds, but only for, I think it was we did five, yeah, sets of five, right? A longer rest period in between.

It was one thing to actually look at what's happening at the heart rate but also there were two others in the group you could say that was too much. So for those two, just looking at them and how they were doing it, they couldn't handle it, right? So then we basically went back to a 10 on, yeah, we 10 on, 20 off, one to two, and that worked way better. But with this one athlete in particular, he was actually able to make significant progress and it actually showed in his sparring data.

It got to a point where I was like, oh, this almost looks like your first round and it was the third round. So then, you know, and then you go back to the coaches and you say, hey look, we're on the right track, this is really good, and also letting the athlete know so then they start to buy in and then even though none of them, they hate it, right?

They were a couple ones they basically told me we're traumatized from seeing this bike. But, you know, I was like well, here's, it's actually working what we're doing. And then they, you know, they start to buy in and I was like, okay, okay, we can do it. And especially when you're on the finish line, the last couple weeks, they're going to feel miserable anyways.

But I think for me that was one example where just by manipulating the work to rest intervals and actually doing something where I would say, man, from the outside this looks way too hard. And this is maybe one of the traps that you fall into, especially if you feel like, hey, even 10 on, 20 off, I'm wiped out after the sixth interval and then going negative. It takes someone really special.

Negative work to rest ratios, it takes someone really special to give it their all. And yeah, I didn't envy them, let's put it that way.

James de Lacey46:14

Yeah, I've already personally gone one to one and it's like terrible. It's hard, man. I haven't gone back into my sprints for a while, I need to, but it's just every time I look at that thing I think I'm like your athletes, I'm traumatized now from that thing. It's awful.

Dorian Grenier46:41

It's awful. But you know, then it almost became like a joke in our team where every time we would walk past the bike and they were like, hey, coach, you want to jump on? Or you know, let's have a little competition. It was traumatizing in a way for sure.

James de Lacey47:01

Did you play around with using other modalities? You mentioned the 50 meter sprint shuttle you would do. Is there anything else like heavy bag intervals or other shadow runs or hill runs?

Dorian Grenier47:01

Yeah, so the intervals on the heavy bag, that was mostly me being in the head coach's ear a little bit, right? It also depends. This head coach, for instance, he would already prioritize quality for the most part over quantity, having explosive combinations and giving athletes a little bit more rest. So he was already bought into that way of training anyways.

And then for me it was just trying to convince him to, okay, if we push hard here, we're going to back off there a little bit. Basically just managing the load throughout the training week. But then the one thing that I really liked to implement eventually was the shuttle sprints. And also with larger groups, as long as we had the space, which we did, having 50 meter shuttle sprints there and back and you have to finish within let's say six seconds or under six seconds.

So you have the timer on there, you get athletes competing against one another, and then you rest, let's say 40 seconds. I think it was around 30 or 40 seconds when it was more geared towards actually power in this case, right? Repeating really high efforts but being able to do it over and over and maybe we'd do, I don't know, 10 of them, 10, 12 of them, something like that.

That seemed to work quite well and we would get pretty good results from that. And then that, you know, transitioning from this and eventually same thing there, starting to reduce the rest time. Yeah, it can get really, really taxing for the legs very quickly.

James de Lacey49:00

I love that. I love that people can take that 15 meter shuttle and use it for themselves as well. And what might also be interesting for the listeners is laying out what a typical week schedule look like for your boxers and wrestlers.

Dorian Grenier49:15

Alright. Monday, first day of the week, usually there's some pretty high intensity training that was usually what the first session of the day, right? You would get started. Coach would put something down. This could be, depending on also where we were, right?

Because the entire training year we're not always going balls to wall. Sometimes there would be more technical development, sometimes it would be literally leading up to an important competition. So that would obviously influence what's going to happen in practice.

But a typical week, Monday hard session, afternoon S&C for maybe one and a half, two hours. So those two sessions. And Tuesday be a little bit easier, technical holding mitts, working on the heavy bag maybe, just going on simple footwork drills, nothing too intense.

In the afternoon, it would be some kind of, whether it be, I hate to say road work because it was not just all they did, but there would be some running involved and then you would have maybe shadow boxing outside afterwards, some other technical drills, those kind of things in the afternoon.

Wednesday, we would have S&C again. Usually in the morning, if the weather was good sometimes we'd be outside for the first half and then back in the gym. Then in the afternoon, there would be boxing practice again. This on that day normally it would be a little bit high intensity, so maybe pressure fighting against the ropes with a partner, kind of rotating through and finish with a couple intervals on the heavy bag again.

Thursday would be an interesting session because it would be something that the head coach kind of implemented into the routine. It would be a lot of gymnastics stuff. So there would be going from a handstand flipping onto the feet, rolling, a lot of like a judo roll, those kind of things over the mat.

So it'd be a lot of almost set up like a circuit in a way, just to hit on a few different qualities and then the second half of that session would be mostly again boxing, maybe wearing a body suit, one person being able to land body shots, work on combinations, creating angles.

This would mostly be partner work and maybe the coach giving a few different things to work on during that session. And then Friday we would have S&C again. And because Saturday is typically a sparring day, the Friday content for me would mostly be more geared towards speed and power and nothing too heavy.

We would do all of that stuff, whether it be general strength development, max strength. All of that would be more shifted towards our Monday session. And then on Friday it would be a lot high velocity kind of stuff, maybe a little bit more med ball circuits, those kind of things, maybe some power repeat stuff depending on where we are.

I really like using the Kaiser equipment with my boxers. So that was a big part of it. And then Saturday was sparring and afternoon was off. So they had only half day on Saturday because it's sparring day and then Sunday is full rest.

James de Lacey52:46

That would be like three full body strength sessions in Monday, Wednesday, Friday? And that would be getting, as you mentioned, geared towards more heavy strength development Monday and kind of taper down Monday, Wednesday and Friday being I guess lighter loading.

Dorian Grenier53:04

Right. And we would also sprinkle in certain, I guess you could call them kind of robustness circuits if you want. That sometimes was done either after boxing practice for 10, 15 minutes if we were there or sometimes at the end of our sessions on Wednesday. It was kind of more of an accessory sort of day as well where we would work on whether it be wrist, forearm strength. Some athletes they had a little bit more shoulder issues.

So we would work on that or we had two girls that were kind of prone for very unstable ankles. So rolling the ankles quite a bit. So we focused more on that and there I probably took maybe the last half hour of our session on that day to really try to fill up some buckets, I guess, that those athletes could benefit from.

But that would be sprinkled in throughout the training week in general. And obviously a little bit for neck. Some athletes they would do it by themselves in smaller training groups, but also giving the athletes some responsibilities and kind of taking the reins in a way or taking responsibility for their own body and certain things that they know they should work on.

If it's your job to prepare yourself to be the best version that you can be, that should, everyone should eventually kind of know what they need to stay in the game.

James de Lacey54:43

Nice. That's perfect. All right, I think that's everything I had for you there. Where can people find and follow you and keep up with what you're doing?

Dorian Grenier54:43

I am terrible at anything related social media. I'm really awful. I think the last thing I posted on my Instagram was maybe two years ago, three years ago.

Maybe LinkedIn. LinkedIn I use quite regularly just to stay in touch with other people. So anyone that wants to chat or get some more information, hit me up there. Instagram you can still find me, but again don't look at me for content or anything.

Who knows, maybe in the future, but right now I don't plan on it. But yeah, I'll say those two for the most part.

James de Lacey55:20

I'll link up your LinkedIn down in the description for anyone who wants to get in touch with you, but I appreciate you coming on.

Dorian Grenier55:33

Awesome. My pleasure.