How the All Blacks Prepare To Dominate & Lessons Taken To The NFL w/ Nic Gill (SSOF Ep 209)

Nic Gill2:49

So yeah, there's lots of similarities, lots of crossover. But both sports seem to have three days of decent practices. So the load is just spread out differently.

James de Lacey4:04

How does the, you mentioned the actual training on the field is different as well. How does that differ in terms of maybe how sessions are structured?

Nic Gill4:13

Like in NFL, there's nine different positions, right? There's different rooms that have all different needs and technical requirements. And rugby union you typically have forwards and backs. You have two rooms. So that affects the structure of training quickly.

In rugby union you might have a team that's got six coaches. In NFL you might have a team that's got 40 coaches.

So there's a whole lot of difference in detail and structure because of the nuances of the sport. Like the technical detail with NFL is so minute. Like the little details of your role in the scheme or in the play or in the room is practiced at a very high level. And in rugby union you tend to spend more time practicing within your unit, your forwards and your backs. And it's how do you secure position? How do you maintain position? How do you score points?

So that's really the differences, right? Like sheer size of coaching group, number of positions that require specialist attention, the time spent apart versus the time spent together is the main differences.

And then obviously in rugby union there's a whole lot of running going on. The backs in an international rugby team will cover six miles in a practice. In NFL, the wide receivers might cover, or let's just, we'll say three or four miles tops. So very different.

James de Lacey5:56

How then with it, with all the coaching staff, we didn't start with just rugby.

In terms of collaborating with sport coaches, because I think things have become recently over time really siloed with strength and conditioning just do strength and conditioning, sport coaches just do sport coaching, whereas a lot of it is a collaborative approach. How did you go about collaborating with coaches, say, in the rugby scene to get whatever out of the session, whether it's physical qualities or maybe some kind of skill development? And then how has that, how has it, or potentially changed or been different within the NFL model when you have 40 coaches to potentially look to collaborate with?

Nic Gill6:33

Yeah, I'd say it's something that is constantly evolving, isn't it? I wouldn't say that I've got it nailed. But I will say that I'm constantly trying to make it better. And what I mean by that is, in rugby union you are typically, and I don't think it's any different to most team sports, but you're trying to create the ability to be the best player on the weekend. Okay, so in the game, you're trying to develop the ability in the player to be the best they can be on the weekend.

So if that's the most important thing, then that's what you should always be focusing on. So the idea of having a session to work on physical attributes or skill development or technical awareness or game plan or schematics, right?

Regardless of what you're trying to work on, everything is essentially geared towards the same outcome, which is performing well on Sunday or performing well on Saturday. And so then it's very much a collaboration of ideas, of needs, what's most important. And remember, we all think what we are responsible for is the most important thing. And that's where people get into these ideas of silos or these problems where if I'm the speed coach, then speed is the most important thing.

And if I just think about it, all I've got to worry about is just giving those guys fast every day he's out in the practice field without any awareness or consideration of other demands or needs or priorities, then you get into trouble.

So it's a constant, like how do we all get out of a practice or out of a session what we all believe is important for the athlete's performance in the weekend.

And I think that's probably the question that we should always keep asking ourselves and that's where you have your conversations. What's going to help the player for the weekend and what's just not really going to help? Or what are the most important one or two or three things for this athlete to be at their best in the weekend? Sometimes it's just feeling good energy-wise, feeling fresh. Some people it's being really clear on their role, but also having practiced their role enough. So straight away there's different needs for different people.

And so those ongoing conversations and collaborations with staff within the team, the greater team, is really you just can't do enough of it. But it's very hard to do, right? It's very hard to have a collaborative approach to an outcome with everyone's got different responsibilities and roles within the group.

And that's not even talking about the fact that there's so many players. In rugby there's 35, 40, so you're talking about a lot of players needing different things and how do you achieve the best outcomes for the majority of the group?

James de Lacey9:39

So how are you then potentially trying to collaborate and maybe influence practice to maybe gain some kind of adaptation outcome maybe from your physical end? So in rugby, just as an example, you might be, I don't know, you might have certain small-sided games or attack stuff. Maybe you have a lighter day or more a speed-based day or attacking day, whatever. Within the NFL, is that something then that's being not quite not used, but is that something that's being implemented there where you're trying to gain certain physical qualities out of certain days within the training session itself?

Or is it just so technically demanding, it's like we're just doing the technical side, you're with your coaches and we're just worried about outside of the sport?

Nic Gill10:18

Yeah, pretty much. Like and it's the same in rugby, too, though. Like when you're in the highest level in rugby, for example, you have athletes that are physically capable. You have athletes that are very good in their roles. That's why they're in the All Blacks. They've got great skills. They've got great game awareness and understanding. They're very fast learners.

So, now it's about how do you help them express all that under pressure and under fatigue. And so, it's not about having one goal or objective of a practice. It's like are we getting everything into this athlete that we need to that's not going to compromise performance, but it's going to help or elevate performance.

And the physical side of things is probably one of the easiest things. A phrase I used to like using I still use it, but it's is that it's easy to sweat. Like it's easy to work hard physically. It's easiest thing to do. The hardest thing to do is execute skill set under pressure and under fatigue and make the right decisions. That's the that those are the four things that are the hardest. Decision making, executing skill, fatigue, pressure.

And so every practice should be thinking about well, are we helping in some of these areas because pressure's going to come. Fatigue's going to be given. How do we help execute the right decision and execute the skill set required in that situation to achieve the outcome we want. And so, yeah, I don't think it's as simple as oh, today's a running session or today's a speed session.

Some days 10 guys in a training session need to not run fast at all. And sometimes five guys need to run fast. And some days the rest of them just need to get through practice.

So I think there's a balance. I think there's a balance between chasing these physical outcomes and being aware of the actual needs of athletes becoming the best player. So I think that's where sometimes especially in S&C, we think that our job is all about creating the best athlete. Actually our job is to create the best player in their role in their team.

And the athletic side of things, the physical attribute side of things is one part of the puzzle. It's a really important part. You need the tools to be able to execute. But it's not the only thing we should be chasing all the time.

James de Lacey12:57

So how do you bring that into whether it's rugby or within a NFL practice then, that idea of that executing those skills under pressure or under fatigue. Is that something you bring into these practices now?

Nic Gill13:12

Oh, I can't comment too much on what we're doing right now, but it should be something that's considered in all team sports, right? Is and I don't think there'd be a coach out there that doesn't think that their practices are trying to improve skills. Trying to improve their awareness of their role within the scheme or within the game plan. And then getting the balance between the mental and physical load or fatigue or volume of knowledge or drill that's being thrown at people.

So I think there's no magic recipe, man. Like it's trying to understand that every practice and every week is very different and every athlete within that group is different. And if it was easy, everyone would be doing it super well. I think it's on constant conversations, constant reflections, constant look forwards and and that's how you try to move a group.

James de Lacey14:13

When you mention that obviously the international rugby side. So that's something that I've thought about a lot. It was when I was in that environment. Like, you don't have much time in these test windows. You get guys coming maybe from clubs. You maybe have a few weeks, maybe, of preparation before say a first international match. At least that's what I had in that environment.

What how do you see preparation in those windows for you as it is? Is it trying to develop in those areas or just making them feel good so they can play through that test window? Maybe some guys for example, at least in the tier two nations, the game is a lot faster internationally than it is within their local clubs around the country. So, I don't know if it's the same with Super Rugby and All Blacks, but that's something to also consider. So, how did you approach such a short get-together before a campaign?

Nic Gill15:10

Pretty simply. I obviously became something that often I think when I first started 20 odd years ago with rugby, it was what test match rugby All Black rugby was you're trying to achieve too much in that short window and all you get is fatigued, cluttered athletes that aren't clear, aren't full of energy because you're trying to achieve everything in the first week together.

So, again, it just comes down to priorities. What's most important? What's going to allow the players to perform in this tempo this high tempo game with more pressure against high-quality players. And often it's understanding your role, practicing your role, forming combinations, and being fresh to cope with the increased speed of the game.

Whereas often we'll go in and go we've got to get them fitter. We've got 2 weeks to get them fitter for the game because it's going to be played at a high tempo. All you do is create fatigue and you could carry fatigue into the game. So, now it's like, "Oh, they look sluggish in the game. It's because of the change of pace." Well, actually no, it's because we cook them. We tried to catch up in 2 weeks. So, there's a balance.

And the international teams, tier one teams, tier two teams, you get limited time. And so, it really comes down to what's most important. But the thing we can control is the expectation of when they come in. So for us, there was always an awareness and appreciation of what these guys are coming into, therefore what they have to be prepared for. And an awareness of whether they've been unloaded coming into the international window or whether they've been maintaining a good level of load.

Because again, there's lots of learnings over the years where players have come in not where they need to be and then they've ended up getting hurt in the first week or two of international window because the spike and intensity and volume's gone up too quick. So again, it's not a there's no magic formula here, but looking at big picture, so what athletes have been doing before they come in and then when they're in, prioritizing if you've only got 2 weeks before the first game in the international window, what do you need to do in that 2 weeks?

And often it's at the end of a club season. So, now you deal with athletes that have played for 18, 19, 20 weeks. And now you're trying to get them right for international, so it's like often, less is best. Whereas early days, I probably thought I need to do more and more because I got to get them up to speed, but yeah, I learned some lessons pretty quick.

James de Lacey18:04

Yeah, I had a similar thing. We had because we didn't have a fully funded sevens program, so our 15s players came over to do sevens, but they played their finals of their national championship and everything and then the day after they come into sevens training camp. And then we have 3 weeks before the first Olympic qualifier.

And it's like these guys come from 15s, so haven't been doing any Sevens, don't have any of that kind of skill development within Sevens as well previously. Same thing with the general fitness and whatnot. And it's like, holy like how do you navigate that? That becomes so challenging with what as you mentioned with loading, doing too much, going to the tournaments. Yeah, that was tough.

Nic Gill18:53

I think the key is just you can't achieve everything. Like you can't work on everything. You've sort of got there's a great book and it helps understand where to put attention and the saying that I took out of it was the important many versus the critical few.

And so any of us could write down all these things we want to achieve in 2 weeks because of where these players are at where they've come from, but you can't address all of it. You've got to refine that to what's critical. What are the critical three things, four things for this team to perform?

And it's probably game plan understanding, forming combinations within that, skill, and then there's balance between physical fitness and freshness. So, form and fatigue. So, I think that is definitely a challenge in international windows for a lot of sports.

James de Lacey20:01

Yeah, yeah. I think anyone who's been in that kind of understands that as well. I'm going to keep jumping around because I've got all these random little things. But I remember I think you presented at the sprints conference back in New Zealand. I think it must have been 2012. Because there's one thing I remember from that that I've implemented and I don't know if I remember it just wrong or whatever, but it was on priming.

And I think you said I'm pretty sure it was you, but I'm pretty sure you said that you keep the primer the same every single week. I could be way wrong, but that is something that I have done ever since where I kind of kept that primer the same to make it familiar and easy for players to implement. It'd be interesting to go into your experience and use of primers.

When you do it, why you do it? Do you still do it? Do guys not do it? Everything.

Nic Gill20:52

Okay, so it would have been me because we introduced primers in 2012 in the All Blacks. So, game day lifts basically. And it took off in New Zealand. It became just high schools do it. It just became a thing, which I thought was interesting in its own right.

But the philosophy, the scientific rationale for a primer is to prime the neural or hormonal system for performance. And it first got shown would have been early 2000s, post-activation potentiation, which is this idea of essentially warming up the movement.

James de Lacey21:36

Yeah, warm me up well.

Nic Gill21:38

That's right. Essentially, when we warm up, we are priming. We are creating that post-activation potentiation or whatever you want to call it. And it came about when the literature was showing that if you did contrast work, if you squatted heavy and then jumped you jumped higher than if you didn't squat heavy. And so, these ideas of these complex and contrast trainings and this potentiation of performance.

And throw into that nighttime kickoffs, so athletes that play games at 7:00, 8:00, 9:00 at night. And most of us know that if we're sitting on the couch watching Law & Order eating a bar of chocolate at 8:00 at night, we're sort of feeling a bit sleepy and tired. So, the last thing we think we could do is perform physically.

And so, this idea of trying to spark the system, delay that drop-off in testosterone, that feeling of fatigue and bedtime was to initiate something that was going to sort of spark things. So, your question is do I keep them the same? When I was with the All Blacks, we had basically three or four different options for priming. Force, speed, some combination, and a mobility activation type session.

And all that happens is it's the day of a game, so you don't want to be trying something new. You don't want to have to learn something. You don't want to experiment with something and then all of a sudden feel bad at kickoff. So game day performance is about habits and routines that you know work for you.

And so, we experimented with players. We gave players sort of options and play with things that made them feel better for kickoff. And once we found what worked for each of them and they liked it, they just stuck with it, and it became just their routine.

So, all it was about was did it make you feel good at kickoff? Yes, great. Let's do the same thing every single week. Did you not feel any, were you indifferent at kickoff? Okay, maybe we try something different next week. And then we had players that just didn't do any priming.

World Cup in 2015, World Cup final in England, we won. We had something like 18 or 19 of the 23 players in the final at the primer. So, that's pretty much lifting game day of the World Cup final.

2019, from memory, we would have had 10 or 11. 2023 World Cup final, we were ahead. Same thing. Maybe 15, 16. So, for three World Cups in a row, it was pretty much similar routine, similar numbers of athletes that were playing in the game that had been doing the same thing for probably years.

James de Lacey24:47

How many hours before do you typically do it?

Nic Gill24:52

Depends on schedule, depends on travel, depends on location, all that stuff, but about 5 hours.

Just prior to the meal, right? Most people are eating 3 or 4 hours before the game. You're sort of doing something before then.

James de Lacey25:10

If you have, obviously that's a lot of those night games 7:00 to 9:00 or whenever they kick off. If you have, for example, in the NFL now, maybe during the World Cups if you have day games, would you still be doing a primer? Say you had a 12:00 or 2:00 kick off, would you still be looking to do a primer?

Nic Gill25:23

In the World Cups when we've had an early kick-off, we've still had primers, but it's been less uptake.

You know, the day just gets, the day starts so quick and all of a sudden you're into it and you don't have this concern or feeling of not being able to be physically, mentally, hormonally, physiologically up because you're playing in the afternoon, which is when we practice. And so, it's sort of not different. Yeah, so you just have less uptake and it's less important, which is why there's less uptake.

James de Lacey25:55

Got you. Do you find that certain types of athletes gravitate to a certain type of primer? Like maybe your front rowers gravitate towards more that force-based one.

Nic Gill26:03

Oh, I think the literature suggests that the different types of athletes should do different primers. If you're a force-dominant athlete, you should be doing a force primer. If you're a speed-dominant athlete, you should be doing a speed primer. But it does depend on things like age. Does depend on things like body, which does also impact on age. If you've got average knees, you're not going to be doing anything that's going to load your knees more than they need to be loaded.

If you like feeling big and puffed up in your arms, well, you probably are going to just do arms. But if you feel good after getting some decent weight on the bar and a squat and a deadlift than a bench, then you're going to do that.

So, it has to come down to what's going to make you feel better or feel good, feel confident, feel ready for battle. But yeah, I'd say that the big boys sort of orientate towards the force spectrum and the twitchy boys tend to orientate towards the speed focus.

James de Lacey27:11

Yeah, so I remember my first professional gig it was a Georgian front row. And he came to the gym Friday afternoon before a Saturday game. He just started loading up heavy squats. And I was being young and probably more ignorant and naive, I was like, "What the [expletive] are you doing the day before a game loading these up?" But for some of these front row guys, I guess mentioned feeling that load the day before as well. For them it just makes them feel ready, I guess for heavy scrummaging and everything else they've got to do.

Nic Gill27:43

Yeah, and I don't know, I'm a big fan of experimentation, right? Athletes should be encouraged to experiment with what makes them feel the best for kickoff. But then once you've experimented and found your recipe that becomes your routine and your habit.

Athletes get unstuck, I think anyway from my experience, where their routine and their leading to games is inconsistent. Because if you have inconsistent preparation, you have inconsistent performance. So, we can control our preparation, we get consistent with our preparation, we'll get consistent performances. You just got to find the recipe or the routine that suits the individual.

James de Lacey28:27

But before I come back to the routines, how much, I think I read something or saw something similar recently. Was it the Arsenal head coach makes it essentially disturbs the routine because he wants players to be able to perform regardless of what happens. Almost like anti-fragility approach. Arrive late to the stadium, don't have XYZ. Does that ever come into your system at all or your thinking at all around this routine stuff about having everything perfect all the time?

Nic Gill28:57

The anti-fragility thing has been around for a few years now. I think it's an interesting concept. I think people dealing with adversity and change is real, right? Athletes, nothing's ever goes how you want it to go out on the game. You have to adapt and react, respond, adjust all the time in a game of whatever sport we're talking. So I get that.

I think the physical and mental stability in a routine is important to be able to adapt and adjust better because you're in a frame of mind in a position to better do it. I would be more inclined to go keep our routine and preparation the same closer to the game. But I'd be more inclined to challenge them around this anti-fragility within practice.

Practice changing. Hey, change the pitches, change the pressure, change the looks, change everything. Keep people on their toes by actually practicing what's going to happen in a game. Yeah, a lot of coaches talk about different scenarios and things like that. That's all that is.

But I do, I've often thought about not necessarily disrupting on purpose but teaching, maybe at the front end of the week disrupting so that they learn to adapt and adjust under a bit of adversity.

James de Lacey30:31

Yeah, it's an interesting concept because yeah, as you mentioned, it's control what you control, have the routine feel good versus essentially being able to be comfortable being uncomfortable, which is obviously an important thing, too, but as you mentioned, routine is also there. I want to comment on that priming. Are you able to give some examples of what a force or velocity-based primer may look like?

Nic Gill30:55

I would probably look at a lower body push like a three-quarter or a quarter squat with chains, a heavy bench, a heavy pull, three threes, something like that. Plenty of rest, not going to fatigue or failure. Just heavy load, plenty of rest, a nice warm-up. Could just eliminate the lower body and just do a heavy push, heavy pull with a bit of flicks beforehand or mobility around it.

And likewise you could have purely a mobility rehab activation type session with some footwork and some jump land and some box jumps and plyo. Could be for speed focus or power focus could be some jump squats, med ball box jumps, assisted jumps. So really I'd always look at two or three exercises.

Force focus would be heavy. Everything's low reps because you don't want any fatigue. Speed focus would be emphasis on power or speed and maybe some contrast. And then the whole mobility activation rehab—most players will have a shoulder they need to work on, maybe some ankle stability, those sorts of things that are just another little stimulus. Because one, it's a long day. Two, they should be fit enough that this doesn't create any fatigue. Three, it's going to change their hormonal or physiological environment which is in a positive way. But four, it's another stimulus. Right? It's another stimulus for improvement.

So if you're doing some stability on your ankle, and your ankles are a limiting factor for your performance, and you're doing it twice in the week, and now you're doing it on game day, it's a third time. How good? You get three stimuli a week on that on the ankle stability. Your ankles are going to be better for it week upon week upon week, because now you're getting one extra little dose.

Same for muscle mass, hypertrophy. People losing muscle mass during the season, you get in an extra little upper body day before a game or day of game, it just helps hold on to that lean mass that you fought so hard to create. So it's not just a performance methodology, but it's also a maintenance or another stimulus to maintain or elevate physical attributes.

James de Lacey33:29

Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. And to carry on I guess on that kind of topic, more I guess on the individualization side. Obviously, within team sport, you can program by position and what even by the sport. And then obviously, you have the individuals within those positions that may need certain changes or whatever to say. I guess how do you balance and even with the NFL, obviously, you've got even more players. So, how do you balance individualization of their training within such big groups?

Nic Gill34:01

It's a challenge, right? Everyone will be aware that individualization is a word thrown around really loosely. Everyone says they do it. It's pretty hard to do, right? I think it's one of those things where at the end of the day, if you look at a program, and you feel like you are addressing all the things that this athlete needs to be better on the game. And not just better in the game, but be able to play week in and week out and practice day in and day out by staying healthy, then that's individualized, right?

If we're just writing the same program for everyone, and there's no adjustments for individual needs, then we're not really individualizing. We're group programming. Now, I've always group programmed or position programmed and then tweak, okay, individualize over top of that. And that's all that it requires. Like we all need to be strong through our hips. We all need to be strong through our shoulders and we all need thoracic extension. There's all these things that most of us need. And there's positional requirements within that. Okay, so no one's going to argue with that. That's simple as.

But understanding injury history, weaknesses, opportunities to be better, loss of muscle mass, all these other things. That's where we individualize. So, I think it's just a matter of looking at a program, is this giving this kid the chance or this athlete the chance to be the best I can be on Sunday? And the next Sunday and the next Sunday and the next Sunday for the season and for next season and for next season. Or are we ignoring things by just keeping it as a group program? So,

James de Lacey35:53

How are you potentially or are you addressing or identifying I guess physical limitations. So, is there anything that's being done, I don't know, testing-wise or anything that will influence what goes into their program on top of maybe the positional and then injury history kind of thing?

Nic Gill36:11

Yeah, well, I can't comment on on NFL because I'm in it right now. But rugby-wise, we would test various things. So, we'd test strength, we'd test body composition, we'd test fitness, we'd test modify risk factors like neck and calf and hamstrings and all that. So, yeah, I think you've got to assess things that you and your team think are important for the health and performance of the athlete. So, you've got to do that. You've got to deal with information and numbers to be able to the team understand where these sort of areas are that we need to focus on.

And so, injury history, current physical attributes or level in various areas, playing position, age, what are the priorities around this player? Is this player already the best in the world? And then we're going to keep should be healthy. He naturally has speed. He just has hamstrings that need some help. We just got to figure that out. And every athlete's different. And that's really all the individualization is: understanding where the athlete is now, where they need to get to to be in the best shape possible for the game and for the season's long-term performance and health.

James de Lacey37:30

So, what does what does a program but I don't know. It's a very general question, but potentially look like for an athlete that just needs to stay healthy? Is that just a lower volume, lower training, low kind of thing outside of the sport? Or is there more to it?

Nic Gill37:44

Way more to it. It's, if you've got an athlete that just needs to be on the park every practice and every game it's not a matter of doing less. It's just a matter of doing what's most important. And so, for example, it might be that the volume in the gym is a little bit less because they've been playing for 10 years. It might mean that the load on the bar is a little bit less.

It's just a matter of keeping the movement in a keep a keep a little bit of load to allow the athlete to express themselves on the park. I think it's not simple. It depends on how many how much game involvement there is, how much practice involvement there is, how they're coping with the game and practice exposure as to what happens in the weight room.

So, I think it's not a matter of you see this all the time where athletes are wrapped in cotton wool to be protected because we just don't want to hurt them and then get hurt because they're actually under-loaded, under-trained. They're not prepared for the physical outputs that they need to be able to do on the practice field or in the game. So, so there is a balance between pushing and pulling back. And the hard thing there is every athlete typically needs something slightly different. And you asked about individualization. Load, running speed, all those things are part of individualization.

And it's like I come from an environment with the All Blacks where if you couldn't practice, you're gone. You couldn't practice, you're sent home. Because the team needs you on a practice to be able to prepare for a test match. And so, there wasn't a lot of all we could do is look after athletes within practice and within the constructs of the squad. So, if we said, "Oh, you five can't practice today because you're old." It'll be like, "Well, then we end up hurting five other people who then have to practice more."

So, it was very much a fine line. And I learned through that that it's not about doing nothing. It's not about doing too much. It's about doing just the right amount for that person in that particular point in time.

James de Lacey39:58

It's funny you mention kind of that cotton wool side of it. I think I kind of like the the rise of GPS as well kind of fit into that with being able to see how much distance someone covered or high-speed meters and then placing restrictions maybe in a week. We're interested to know in terms of maybe GPS and kind of those live training metrics, how you use them to maybe influence training more performance-based, monitoring-based?

I know I think looking back, I I definitely I would say I made I would say I made a mistake where looking at numbers at face value and being like, "Well, this person needs to stop. Well, not stop. Take a lighter part of training now because they hit this many kilometers in the session." And it's like, "Man, he looks fine.

I watch him train, he's good. He's been training every week." But I know I have made that mistake and it's obviously something you can only learn when you do it. So it'd be interesting to know kind of how you put together or how you would use that data within rugby or if you're only talking about rugby.

Nic Gill40:58

James, I think it's a common mistake that most people have made. And some people are still making it. I think the data can be dangerous and can distract from the process of preparing a perform. So I think in time people have learned that there's numbers and there's context and there's individualized sort of approaches based on those numbers.

And a classic example would be in rugby if we if we're running a bit hot, right? So if we're sort of all of a sudden our practice at the start of the week is starting to get up there in terms of running metrics. What do you do? Okay?

You got a couple options. You go up to the head coach and say, "Hey coach, you've done enough." And they either go off or they go with it. If I did that to any of my previous head coaches, I'd get basically tossed out the building. I wouldn't be able to get a bus home. I'd be left at the training ground.

I think it's understanding what the data means and understanding what's happening on the park. And so often I think the most successful programs have been where there's been a collaboration of what to do. And so often a head coach would get to me in rugby and say, "Gilly, how we looking?" And I'd be like "Hey, we're looking pretty sweet. We're up there, but we're going to be fine cuz there's only 10 minutes left. The only one I'm concerned about is John Smith."

And the coach would be like, "Sweet. We'll finish the practice. I might just take some pace out. I might spend a bit more time talking and walking, and we'll get John out of the session." And then I think that's the sort of the intricacies of the discussion is providing the information in the context with not an opinion or a rule, but a let's talk about this and figure it out.

And that's about education of your coaches and then about understanding hey, we need to practice that last 10 minutes. We want to beat England on Saturday at Twickenham. We need that 10 minutes of practice. The question is, do we need it at full speed? Or do certain players need it at full speed?

And then it's like, well, the coaches are going to go, okay, well, we don't want to cook them. But we do need it at full speed. We're just going to cut in half. And so there's compromise. But as soon as you start saying he has done 6 km, he's out, then now they're no longer becoming the best player they can be because you're stopping them practicing.

So they're no longer to practice catching, practice passing, practice running lines, practice kicking because you've told them they've run too far. So you sort of need to have those conversations, create education, that ability to collaborate. But then also reflect on practices and go man, we did all this stuff at the front of practice that wasn't actually that useful for the team and for the performance on Saturday. So let's review our practice. Where are we spending all these meters? Let's stop spending meters there and spend meters where we actually need them.

And again, that's reviewing what you've done and then planning what you're going to do and learning from it. So the biggest thing that I've sort of seen over the years is typically when you work with a certain coaching group what they actually put in practice is pretty similar. And how you control volume is typically time.

It's pretty hard to say to a coach, "Hey coach, can you get rid of 150 high minutes from that drill?" And they're like, "What?" Whereas if you say, "Hey, that drill gave us a whole lot of running, can we trim it by 3 minutes?" Sweet as. Easy. So, I think there's some learnings there. Review what you've done, review where the minutes have been spent, and understand that sometimes you got to do stuff.

James de Lacey45:24

How strict then would the sessions be planned in terms of time? Because you can't obviously go to the minute, 0 to 5 minutes is this, then 5 to 8 minutes is this, etc.

Nic Gill45:37

I'm sure my age here, James. When I was with the All Blacks, which was up until last year, I'd have my watch. I'd have a bit of paper with the training plan, I'd have a pen, and I'd be writing down times on my hand cuz otherwise I'd forget what time a particular part of practice started.

But in rugby, there's always an element of "Hey, we've finished this drill. Let's talk about it." And we would never include that in our training time. So, talking wasn't included because hey, if you don't talk about it and you don't give time to talk about it, you're not maybe getting the learnings that you want and need.

So, I would always... We'd always be running to the clock to the minute for the actual drill that's been planned, not for the time in between. And then what you got to be careful of is if there's too much talk, too much chat, people are walking between drills, then practice drags out to 2 and 1/2 hours. So, there is an element of nailing transitions, but allowing time to learn and debrief. But we'd only time our actual drills.

James de Lacey46:50

You say old school, but man, I would still use pen and paper every session. I'd have a paper with all my stuff on it and everything. So, I can't say it's too old school. I don't know people who are on the field with phones now with apps. I don't think that's a... Well, hopefully that's maybe not a thing.

Nic Gill47:04

Yeah, well, I'm just trying to find a bit of paper that I just had when I came in here to speak to you, mate. I've got a bit of paper and a pen, man. This is me.

James de Lacey47:12

Yep. Yeah, definitely. It's nice to be able to focus on the session with that versus everything else going on.

But I want to as we round this podcast off, this idea of... I was going through some of the Instagram stuff, too, on balancing the development of endurance and power. And obviously within rugby and within American football, kind of two slightly different physiological profiles or responses there with the session.

Now, I would still say American football is a 4-hour game, even though you're not playing for 4 hours, but it has a ton of stoppages and it goes on for a while. So, it'd be interesting to go into maybe how you're looking to balance kind of those two qualities within either sport or even just within one of them in terms of overall training holistic approaches.

Nic Gill48:02

I think in rugby it's... I obviously had the luxury of or the benefit of having a lot of time in one sport with the best team in the world for a long, long time. And I say that because I've worked with some of the best rugby players on the planet over time, and I think about a similar like a Richie McCaw. And I know he finished playing 2015, so a long time ago, 10 years ago, but he was the best player on the planet for years.

And what made him the best player on the planet was in the 80th minute, he was still the guy running around like a headless chicken, just winning games on the head. He was always in the right place at the right time when the pressure was on and the team needed something big.

I think about a Sam Whitelock. Same athlete. 2023 World Cup, Sam gets a turnover. The seven... we were defending Ireland. I think... The period of play was 7 and 1/2 minutes long. And everyone was dead on their feet. And he just bounces to his feet and gets a turnover. Gets a penalty, finishes the game. So, at the end of a game at 80-minute mark, these guys with big engines are performing these amazing tasks that have decided games and nearly World Cups.

So, I balance that experience with then an athlete like a Beauden Barrett. Gee, I've worked with so many amazing athletes. Will Jordans, Cory Jane, Israel Dagg. All these amazing athletes that can run like the wind. Quick, amazing change of direction ability, great accelerating, great with one-on-one sort of evasion. And so we're talking power speed type athletes.

And I think that across the board, they're all different. And they all have different roles and different strengths and weaknesses, but the one thing that doesn't change in rugby union is the game is 80 minutes long. And it's played over about 100 minutes. And so there's an element of needing to be able to create what you create in the first 10 minutes still being able to do it in the 90th and 100th minute.

And that's endurance, right? That's repeatability. And Richie was never... I've said this lots of times. Richie was never the quickest guy in the world. He was never one of the quickest guys in the team. Probably one of the slowest. But at the 80th minute, he was the one that didn't fatigue. Therefore, at the end of the game, he was one of the fastest to move or be in the right place. And so you just got to balance that out.

So, I think there's an element of you need to be aerobically at a level that can sustain repeatability and recovery and repeat the level of output in the first 2 minutes. You need to be able to do it in the 80th or 90th minute. And the best athletes can do that, a Damian McKenzie with the All Blacks at the moment. In the 90th minute when you've got forwards starting to get fatigued, he's still running around like a headless chicken and just making people look stupid.

He doesn't lower his output. Now, he's a little guy, so it's a little bit easier. Or look at someone like a Scott Barrett at the moment in the All Blacks when he is playing his best rugby, he is smashing rucks and he is always first to rucks over 80 or 90 minutes. He's also extremely powerful and strong.

So there is this need to be able to deliver those maximal outputs repetitively over a long period of time. There is an element of zone one, zone two, zone three ability. Because to be able to do it, you've got to recover. And part of those zones or those lower levels of oxidative ability is recovery.

So to me it's just if you understand the energy systems, they work in unison, they work together. It's not just like I just need to work on my alactic system. It's like they all work together to produce a 90-100 minute performance. So you've got to acknowledge that and then treat that appropriately.

James de Lacey52:36

So what's your philosophy around then training repeatability in the context of say rugby where you're getting maybe a lot of on feet, a lot of volume at least from the practice itself, probably generally a fair amount of lower moderate intensity volume from the practice itself as well. How does that then influence maybe what you're doing outside of rugby training in order to develop repeatability?

Nic Gill53:00

Well, each individual is going to be getting through 80 or 90 minutes of rugby differently, right? So understanding where that need comes from. If we're getting enough in practice, but we're still getting certain athletes getting tired at the back of a game, is it because they're going into the game fatigued or are they not aerobically fit enough?

And then it's a matter of how do you achieve more off feet, so not on the practice field. So you might have an athlete that's struggling with recovery and repeatability over a 100-minute game, maybe we need an extra aerobic stimulus early in the week. Maybe they're not recovering properly from a big Tuesday, Thursday. So they get enough aerobic and anaerobic work, but they're not fresh enough for the performance. So you just got to look at that individually, what do they need.

A big thing would be if you're getting enough zone one, zone two on a team practice and across the board and no one's fatiguing or showing aerobic signs of need, then maybe it's improving repeatability. So max output, short rest, max output. In rugby, the average phase or period of play is average phase is like 25, 30 seconds. And the average rest period is about about a minute. So being good at being able to live in that space is important over 100 minutes.

Yeah, it's looking at who's getting what within a practice, who's getting what in the weight room, and then where are they, how are they expressing that on Saturday in the game is how you should be working backwards.

James de Lacey54:46

I want to run this out to continue on that point you mentioned, obviously the averages of play in there. And obviously I think worst-case scenario style training became popular maybe eight or so years ago. And I think it's becoming popular again. I'd be interesting to know your take on this idea of worst-case scenario training, preparing for the peak periods of a game. Is that something that you did or something that you're into?

Nic Gill55:08

Yeah, 100% like you got to be ready for what might happen. It might never happen, but for example, World Cup 2023, we were consciously practicing defending or attacking for 4 or 5 minutes.

And we get to the quarter final and we basically out there defending for 7 and 1/2 minutes. And it wasn't easy, right? But because we got comfortable being a little bit uncomfortable, the boys just were confident and you could see it on the tape, you could see it in the game. Like they were just this is what we do. We've been doing this. And I know we've only been doing 7 and 1/2 minutes, but we had a focus on being able to tolerate or handle what might happen in a big game.

And so I think it's really important. And I said to you we got phases average 30 seconds, but you can have multiple phases for a period of time that you need to be able to do. And what cracks me up is often these periods of playing a game are 3 minutes long. And we got rugby players that don't run for 3 minutes at a time.

So I think that's important. I know that you might not be running for 3 minutes within a rugby game, but you are working for 3 minutes. You're getting up and down off your feet. You're going backwards, you're going forwards, you're moving sideways. It might not be all fast, but you're doing 3 minutes of work often. And we don't actually practice that or train it physically, so I'll leave it with that, eh?

James de Lacey56:54

Yeah, no. I appreciate you coming on and sharing your time. Where can people find and follow you?

Nic Gill57:01

Can you chuck that out for me, James? So Nick Gill Hammond on Instagram and rugby ready on Instagram. So yeah, chuck us a follow. Be great to have you on board.

James de Lacey57:13

Yeah, I'll put everything in the description and I'll get some clips up for you and everything and I appreciate you coming on.

Nic Gill57:19

Good mate. Thanks, brother.